TLM vestments vs. NOM vestments

[Ad_Deum]

http://www.fssp.org/objet/Ratzinger05.jpg

http://www.catholicfirst.com/images/massvestments.jpg

Top: Then Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger now Pope Benedict XVI celebrated the traditional Pontifical High Mass with the FSSP.

Below: The chart shows the proper vesting of a priest using the traditional vestments.

Any thoughts on the TLM vestments vs. NOM vestments

Instaurare Omnia In Christo

PS:

Thanks to fssp.org and catholicfirst.com may God bless you!

I’m sorry folks I don’t have contemporary vestment pictures here.

 

[KofC660]

Also, how do traditional Roman Rite vestments differ from the other rites of the Church?

 

[demerzel85]

Any thoughts on the TLM vestments vs. NOM vestments

Well in both Extraordinary Use and Ordinary Use of the Roman Rite either the Gothic of the Roman Chasubles may be worn. Unfortunately some Gothic Chasubles have become little more than ponchos.

With regards to the crossed stole from Priests and the maniple, well those simply cannot be done without

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Well in both Extraordinary Use and Ordinary Use of the Roman Rite either the Gothic of the Roman Chasubles may be worn. Unfortunately some Gothic Chasubles have become little more than ponchos.

With regards to the crossed stole from Priests and the maniple, well those simply cannot be done without

I believe in the '62 books the priest has the option of either crossing his stole or wearing straight like a bishop.

 

[lak611]

Is the maniple required for the TLM? That would take some practice for a priest to wear, especially with the lighter chalices that are more common nowadays. The retired priest in residence at my parish said that maniples have been known to cause accidents, knocking over chalices. The modern chalices would not take much to knock over.

 

[demerzel85]

I believe in the '62 books the priest has the option of either crossing his stole or wearing straight like a bishop.

Hmm… in Ceremonies of the Roman Rite Descibed, it says that the stole is crossed for the Priest and straight for the Bishop.

 

[demerzel85]

Is the maniple required for the TLM? That would take some practice for a priest to wear, especially with the lighter chalices that are more common nowadays. The retired priest in residence at my parish said that maniples have been known to cause accidents, knocking over chalices. The modern chalices would not take much to knock over.

hehe, oh you mean the cups they use these days

Well Gothic vestments are different from Roman ones. Roman stoles and maniples are thicker at the ends, when the Gothics ones are just straight down. I would think that Gothic maniples would be less of a ‘hindrance’ for that case.

And well the ornate chalices should be kept somewhere in a sacristy…

 

[lak611]

hehe, oh you mean the cups they use these days

Well Gothic vestments are different from Roman ones. Roman stoles and maniples are thicker at the ends, when the Gothics ones are just straight down. I would think that Gothic maniples would be less of a ‘hindrance’ for that case.

And well the ornate chalices should be kept somewhere in a sacristy…

I don’t think my parish has any chalices. The priests have their own. But the retired priest has a sturdy chalice.

 

[demerzel85]

I don’t think my parish has any chalices. The priests have their own. But the retired priest has a sturdy chalice.

Though this is a thread on the vestments, in terms of sacred vessels, it seems that some modern chalices omit the node to assist in the proper handling.

 

[lak611]

Well Gothic vestments are different from Roman ones. Roman stoles and maniples are thicker at the ends, when the Gothics ones are just straight down. I would think that Gothic maniples would be less of a ‘hindrance’ for that case.

Whenever I have been to the indult TLM’s in my diocese, the priest had always worn a Roman chasuble and maniple. The videos of TLM’s also showed the priest wearing Roman chasubles and maniples. Are there any pictures available of a priest wearing a Gothic chasuble and maniple? I know what the traditional Gothic chasuble looks like. The Monsignor who was pastor of my parish when I was a kid wore nice Gothic chasubles that did not look like flour sacks like some of the modern ones do. Of course, this was in the 1970’s, so the maniple was not worn. I do not know what a Gothic maniple looks like.

 

[demerzel85]

Whenever I have been to the indult TLM’s in my diocese, the priest had always worn a Roman chasuble and maniple. The videos of TLM’s also showed the priest wearing Roman chasubles and maniples. Are there any pictures available of a priest wearing a Gothic chasuble and maniple? I know what the traditional Gothic chasuble looks like. The Monsignor who was pastor of my parish when I was a kid wore nice Gothic chasubles that did not look like flour sacks like some of the modern ones do. Of course, this was in the 1970’s, so the maniple was not worn. I do not know what a Gothic maniple looks like.

Notice His Grace, Archbishop Raymond L Burke

http://www.institute-christ-king.org/images/DSC_0273copy.jpg

 

[lak611]

Notice His Grace, Archbishop Raymond L Burke

http://www.institute-christ-king.org/images/DSC_0273copy.jpg

That does look much lighter than the Roman maniple. The Gothic maniple would probably cause fewer chalice accidents.

 

[Sr_Sally]

Is the maniple required for the TLM? That would take some practice for a priest to wear, especially with the lighter chalices that are more common nowadays. The retired priest in residence at my parish said that maniples have been known to cause accidents, knocking over chalices. The modern chalices would not take much to knock over.

I once saw a fire started on the altar when a candle was knocked over.

Not sure what the ritual significaance of the maiple is, but traditionally it was just the priest’s hanky–a way for him to mop his brow without using his hands! LOL

 

[lak611]

I once saw a fire started on the altar when a candle was knocked over.

:bigyikes:

Not sure what the ritual significaance of the maiple is, but traditionally it was just the priest’s hanky–a way for him to mop his brow without using his hands! LOL

Perhaps it would be best to keep the maniple out of use to avoid spilt chalices and fires.

 

[demerzel85]

:bigyikes:

Perhaps it would be best to keep the maniple out of use to avoid spilt chalices and fires.

The maniple is the special badge of the order of subdeaconship and may not be used by those in lower orders. It symbolises the heavenly reward or joyful harvest received in return for the hardships of apostolic labours and for the penitential works of this life which are like ‘seed sown in tears’ (Psalm 125:5). This meaning is found in the vesting Prayer "Let me merit, O Lord, to bear the maniple of tears and sorrow so that one day I may come with joy into the rewards of my labours.

• Extracted from 1961 Cathedral Daily Missal

 

[Windmill]

Archbishop Burke was loaded down that day. Cassock, alb, stole, dalmatic, chasuble, pallium, amice, miter, maniple…etc… Bishops need a maniple with all those layers on. Maybe that’s why they make Cathedrals out of stone…it keeps the place cool so the Bishop doesn’t pass out.

It sure looks impressive, though.

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Also, how do traditional Roman Rite vestments differ from the other rites of the Church?

Well, speaking for the Byzantine Rite (all 14 Byzantine Churches) there is virtually no correlation.

The subdeacon wears a sticharion (common to all clergy and, in fact, to altar servers as well) and an orarion (stole) that is worn crossed front and back to represent angels’ wings. The deacon wears an orarion that hangs from the left shoulder down the front and back although there is a “double orarion” that also hangs down the front and back on the left side but loops across the body (front and back) and under the right arm.

The priest wears a plain sticharion (the deacon/subdeacon wear fancy ones) and this is covered with a phelonian (the Eastern equivalent of a chasuble). The priest’s stole (called an epitrachelion) is similar to a Latin Rite priest’s stole except that it is sewn together below an opening to slip it over the head. The priest also wears a zone (a belt) and, if permitted, a diamond shaped “shield” called an epigonation. The priest may also wear a cross if permitted.

These vestments do not look like Latin vestments nor do they follow the Latin scheme for liturgical colors.

Deacon Ed

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Archbishop Burke was loaded down that day. Cassock, alb, stole, dalmatic, chasuble, pallium, amice, miter, maniple…etc… Bishops need a maniple with all those layers on. Maybe that’s why they make Cathedrals out of stone…it keeps the place cool so the Bishop doesn’t pass out.

It sure looks impressive, though.

Don’t forget that he was quite possibly wearing a tunicle as well. Although, to be fair, the pontifical versions of the tunicle and dalmatic are much lighter than those actually worn by subdeacons and deacons.

Whenever I have been to the indult TLM’s in my diocese, the priest had always worn a Roman chasuble and maniple. The videos of TLM’s also showed the priest wearing Roman chasubles and maniples. Are there any pictures available of a priest wearing a Gothic chasuble and maniple?

They seem to be just as popular as fiddlebacks in England and Wales: latin-mass-society.org/photos.htm

 

[ComradeAndrei]

I think the issue of the maniple getting in the way has been overstated. As with anything, sure, it could get in the way but one need only be careful. I’ve seen guys wearing goofy modern looking albs with big sleeves that have almost knocked chalices or other things over at Mass.

 

[lak611]

I think the issue of the maniple getting in the way has been overstated. As with anything, sure, it could get in the way but one need only be careful. I’ve seen guys wearing goofy modern looking albs with big sleeves that have almost knocked chalices or other things over at Mass.

You do have a point. The only reason I brought up the maniple getting in the way is because of what I heard from a priest who saw this happen (BTW, he was not the one who knocked over the chalice). He never mentioned seeing a chalice knocked over by any other vestment, nor did he mention knocking over the chalice with other vestments.