TLM vestments vs. NOM vestments

[Aramis]

I once saw a fire started on the altar when a candle was knocked over.

Not sure what the ritual significaance of the maiple is, but traditionally it was just the priest’s hanky–a way for him to mop his brow without using his hands! LOL

It turned into the significator of Major Orders, since the Subdeaconate wore it, but not a stole.

I did some research for a game supplement, and discovered the traditional vesting varies somewhat over time, but essentially boils down to:
Lesser Ordinations: Cassock*, Alb and Cincture; OR Cassock and Surplice.
Subdeacon: Cassock*, Amice, Alb, Cincture, Maniple, Tunicle**
Deacon: Cassock*, Amice, Alb, Cincture, Maniple, Stole, Dalmatic**
Priest: Cassock*, Amice, Alb, Cincture, Maniple, Stole, Chasuble, Biretta***
Bishop: Cassock*, Amice, Alb, Cincture, Maniple, Stole, Chasuble or Dalmatic****, zuchetto, miter and crozier. Archbishops add the pallium.

• The cassock could be replaced with other ecclesiastical or lay clothing.
  ** The Subdeacon’s Tunicle originally was thigh length and short sleeved, while the dalmatic was half-sleeved and knee length.
  *** The Biretta dates to the 10th C, and over time expanded to all clerics (subdeacons, deacons, priests, bishops, and cardinals) Use in the liturgy varied widely.
  **** Dalmatic vs Chasuble for bishops varied over time. Bishops’ Dalmatics have a different cut than diaconal dalmatics, and for a great time were worn UNDER a chasuble.

Also, for certain timeframes, Deacons wore a chasuble, but folded. I have seen a woodcut that appears to show this; a diagonal stole, with a chasuble folded so that it appears similar to a dalmatic.

The Maniple’s shape, size, and placement varied a bit historically and geographically, from near the cuff to above the elbow.

The Amice isn’t required if the alb is hooded.

All of the above could use the humeral veil or the cope, as appropriate, and except for bishops, all the above wore cassock and suplice as choir vesting. Bishops instead wore Rochettas and zuchettos (after their introduction).

The only TLM vestment no longer in common NO use is the maniple; the amice has fallen out of use, since many albs are hooded now (and many more “False Hooded”); the purpose was to protect the neckline of the outer vestments.

Current GIRM calls for the amice:
GIRM-US:

1. In the sacristy, the sacred vestments (cf. nos. 337-341) for the priest, the deacon, and other ministers are to be prepared according to the various forms of celebration:
   a. for the priest: the alb, the stole, and the chasuble;
   b .for the deacon: the alb, the stole, and the dalmatic; the dalmatic may be omitted, however, either out of necessity or on account of a lesser degree of solemnity;
   c. for the other ministers: albs or other lawfully approved attire.
   All who wear an alb should use a cincture and an amice unless, due to the form of the alb, they are not needed.

 

[ComradeAndrei]

It turned into the significator of Major Orders, since the Subdeaconate wore it, but not a stole.

I did some research for a game supplement, and discovered the traditional vesting varies somewhat over time, but essentially boils down to:
Lesser Ordinations: Cassock*, Alb and Cincture; OR Cassock and Surplice.
Subdeacon: Cassock*, Amice, Alb, Cincture, Maniple, Tunicle**
Deacon: Cassock*, Amice, Alb, Cincture, Maniple, Stole, Dalmatic**
Priest: Cassock*, Amice, Alb, Cincture, Maniple, Stole, Chasuble, Biretta***
Bishop: Cassock*, Amice, Alb, Cincture, Maniple, Stole, Chasuble or Dalmatic****, zuchetto, miter and crozier. Archbishops add the pallium.

• The cassock could be replaced with other ecclesiastical or lay clothing.
  ** The Subdeacon’s Tunicle originally was thigh length and short sleeved, while the dalmatic was half-sleeved and knee length.
  *** The Biretta dates to the 10th C, and over time expanded to all clerics (subdeacons, deacons, priests, bishops, and cardinals) Use in the liturgy varied widely.
  **** Dalmatic vs Chasuble for bishops varied over time. Bishops’ Dalmatics have a different cut than diaconal dalmatics, and for a great time were worn UNDER a chasuble.

Also, for certain timeframes, Deacons wore a chasuble, but folded. I have seen a woodcut that appears to show this; a diagonal stole, with a chasuble folded so that it appears similar to a dalmatic.

The Maniple’s shape, size, and placement varied a bit historically and geographically, from near the cuff to above the elbow.

The Amice isn’t required if the alb is hooded.

All of the above could use the humeral veil or the cope, as appropriate, and except for bishops, all the above wore cassock and suplice as choir vesting. Bishops instead wore Rochettas and zuchettos (after their introduction).

The only TLM vestment no longer in common NO use is the maniple; the amice has fallen out of use, since many albs are hooded now (and many more “False Hooded”); the purpose was to protect the neckline of the outer vestments.

Current GIRM calls for the amice:

A few very minor points-

1. Seminarians can make use of the biretta, especially with,
2. Choir dress for seminarians and priests is cassock, surplice, biretta-add zuchetto, replace surplice with rochet, and add mozzetta and appropriate (cord, not chain) pectoral cross for prelates and canons with pontifical rights
3. I believe a hooded alb is for monastic priests, technically, and that secular priests should wear an amice. The clerical collar should be covered by the amice.

 

[lak611]

1. I believe a hooded alb is for monastic priests, technically, and that secular priests should wear an amice. The clerical collar should be covered by the amice.

I’ve noticed that the modern albs tend to have a high neckline and a string tie in the back of the neck, so they cover the clerical collar. The priests in my parish do not wear the amice, but their albs cover their clerical collars completely.

 

[ComradeAndrei]

I’ve noticed that the modern albs tend to have a high neckline and a string tie in the back of the neck, so they cover the clerical collar. The priests in my parish do not wear the amice, but their albs cover their clerical collars completely.

If that is the case, then the amice is not needed. Generally speaking, I would prefer a more traditional alb with the amice but to each his own in this regard.

 

[lak611]

If that is the case, then the amice is not needed. Generally speaking, I would prefer a more traditional alb with the amice but to each his own in this regard.

Do you mean the lacy albs? When I have gone to the TLM, the priest has always worn a lacy alb.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

I think the issue of the maniple getting in the way has been overstated. As with anything, sure, it could get in the way but one need only be careful. I’ve seen guys wearing goofy modern looking albs with big sleeves that have almost knocked chalices or other things over at Mass.

I second that. The church at which I work is all about the big, long, and flowing style, so the albs all have sleeves that are over a foot wide.

Also, for certain timeframes, Deacons wore a chasuble, but folded. I have seen a woodcut that appears to show this; a diagonal stole, with a chasuble folded so that it appears similar to a dalmatic.

I just thuoght I’d point out for history buffs that the vestments for various occasions and ministers actually might vary widely through history and among dioceses. Your examle of deacons trading in dalmatic for folded chasuble is a good occasional one, which subdeacons also did. On those same occasions (usually penitential), a deacon might wear a different, broader sort of stole.

In other historic diocesan uses, though, like the Bragan, we see inferior ministers vested in things we would normally think of as distinctive of higher orders, like thurifers and acolytes vested in dalmatics for pontifical Masses. There’s lots of interesting variety out there if one is willing to plow through what can be at times very dry works.

 

[ComradeAndrei]

Do you mean the lacy albs? When I have gone to the TLM, the priest has always worn a lacy alb.

Not necessarily (though I do like ecclesiastical lace) but just that style in general-linen or lace. No hood, no huge sleeves, no zippers or velcro. A tie in the front with a fairly close fitting neck and sleeves. Lace accents are a plus.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Not necessarily (though I do like ecclesiastical lace) but just that style in general-linen or lace. No hood, no huge sleeves, no zippers or velcro. A tie in the front with a fairly close fitting neck and sleeves. Lace accents are a plus.

I remember a previous thread in which I was a little too detailed in my lace preferences and got a “sideways glance” from JKirk . I try now to avoid giving the impression that I’ve thought too much about it.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I remember a previous thread in which I was a little too detailed in my lace preferences and got a “sideways glance” from JKirk . I try now to avoid giving the impression that I’ve thought too much about it.

I had forgotten about that!!!