TLM vs. NO

[muffinmojo]

Hi SHF. Couple of thoughts come to mind:

1. “They” did not change the Mass. The Vicar of Christ changed the Mass, as he has the authority to do.

Not to be contrary, but His Holiness has repeatedly said that he nor anyone else has the authority to change the liturgy- it needs to be a council.

Now, I’m not a traditionalist, but I find it slightly odd that people here are saying the Pauline missal was good for the Church…? At the very least, it was poorly timed. A simple revision of the Tridentine missal as the OP suggested would have been far better.

And yes, I attend an NO Mass. I rarely attend TLMs, mostly because we don’t have a good one in this area, and also because I think the NO isn’t inherently bad.

 

[Spiller]

**Right, disregard centuries of organic growth.**It makes sense to just ignore what each generation has had to add to the mass. After all, we know better.

The Classical mass is the organic offspring of the ancient liturgy, it is a completely unfounded notion to suggest that the earlier mass is somehow more pure. In fact such a notion goes right against our understanding of liturgy and organic growth. Though I don’t expect a Pauline supporter to understand such a concept.

Such as in the early church?

 

[Spiller]

Hi SHF. Couple of thoughts come to mind:

1. “They” did not change the Mass. The Vicar of Christ changed the Mass, as he has the authority to do.
2. The Mass did not “have” to be changed. It was valid and licit as it was. So then, why did the Pope change the Mass? Because he believed that it was the best thing to do for the Church (not the American church or the TLM lovers church or any other group, but for the Church throughout the world).

God Bless you on your discernment call. I will pray that you find the path God wants you to find. If I may suggest, why not meditate on this “change of Mass” topic and the vow of obedience you will take as a Priest?

:yup:

 

[consumedconvert]

Right, disregard centuries of organic growth.It makes sense to just ignore what each generation has had to add to the mass. After all, we know better.

The Classical mass is the organic offspring of the ancient liturgy, it is a completely unfounded notion to suggest that the earlier mass is somehow more pure. In fact such a notion goes right against our understanding of liturgy and organic growth. Though I don’t expect a Pauline supporter to understand such a concept.

Nice sneer. I couldn’t help noticing that your profile says you’re a student. Perhaps age will mellow your anti-modern disposition and your fractious compulsion to attempt dividing the Body of Christ into camps of “Pauline supporters” and “Traditionalists” or “TLM supporters.” Might as well divide those who wear the scapular from those who wear the miraculous medal.

“That they may be one,” he said.

 

[SJP]

Nice sneer. I couldn’t help noticing that your profile says you’re a student. Perhaps age will mellow your anti-modern disposition and your fractious compulsion to attempt dividing the Body of Christ into camps of “Pauline supporters” and “Traditionalists” or “TLM supporters.” Might as well divide those who wear the scapular from those who wear the miraculous medal.

“That they may be one,” he said.

Perhaps you don’t appreciate the tone of the message, fine. That doesn’t change the fact that the creation of the OF was an inorganic development in the liturgy.

 

[ethelzguy]

Perhaps you don’t appreciate the tone of the message, fine. That **doesn’t change the fact **that the creation of the OF was an inorganic development in the liturgy.

And, you are in a position to determine on behalf of the HMC what is and isn’t “organic”?

 

[Spiller]

Perhaps you don’t appreciate the tone of the message, fine. That doesn’t change the fact that the creation of the OF was an inorganic development in the liturgy.

It also doesn’t change the fact that the Pauline Mass is the OF of the Mass. It’s also every bit as valid, reverent and gorgeous as the EF too…

 

[SJP]

And, you are in a position to determine on behalf of the HMC what is and isn’t “organic”?

No, not me, just some guy named Ratzinger whom the Holy Ghost elevated to Pope.

“…in place of liturgy as the fruit of devolvement came a fabricated liturgy. We abandoned the organic, living process of growth and replaced it – as in a manufacturing process – with a fabrication, a banal on-the-spot product.”
Cardinal Ratzinger: Preface to the French edition of Msgr. Gamber’s The Reform of the Roman Liturgy: Its Problems and Background

 

[ethelzguy]

No, not me, just some guy named Ratzinger whom the Holy Ghost elevated to Pope.

“…in place of liturgy as the fruit of devolvement came a fabricated liturgy. We abandoned the organic, living process of growth and replaced it – as in a manufacturing process – with a fabrication, a banal on-the-spot product.”
Cardinal Ratzinger: Preface to the French edition of Msgr. Gamber’s The Reform of the Roman Liturgy: Its Problems and Background

Musings under the title of “Pope” don’t carry the same weight as those coming from “Cardinals” or “Bishops” etc. It seems that every sentence ever uttered by Cardinal Ratzinger is suddenly interpreted by ultra-tradtionalists as Church dogma.

 

[SJP]

Musings under the title of “Pope” don’t carry the same weight as those coming from “Cardinals” or “Bishops” etc. It seems that every sentence ever uttered by Cardinal Ratzinger is suddenly interpreted by ultra-tradtionalists as Church dogma.

I guess you don’t feel comfortable dealing with the content of my post.

 

[TheDoctor]

Not to be contrary, but His Holiness has repeatedly said that he nor anyone else has the authority to change the liturgy- it needs to be a council.

It’s OK. I am here to learn like everyone else. I am far from the shiniest chalice on the altar.

Can you please provide me with a reference for that? I am under the opinion that a council could not change the liturgy without the approval of the Pope, and conversely, a council could not stop the use of a liturgy that the Pope approved. Thanks in advance.

 

[consumedconvert]

Hey Doc,

You’re signature line cracks me up!

 

[Ckay]

Hi folks,

Hope it is ok if I jump in on your discussion.

Many years ago about 50, I had a Monsignor tell me there would come a day when the Mass would be said in English, there would be lots of changes. It would be scary but not to be scared that they would not and could not do away with the Traditional Mass, some old men wanted to get rid of it than, but to many did not.

He said those changes would happen in my life time not his.

It happened it shook my faith. So what happens next.

 

[ethelzguy]

I guess you don’t feel comfortable dealing with the content of my post.

I have no problem dealing with your content.

You made a statement of FACT, based on the OPINION of someone who was then a CARDINAL.

That does not make it FACT. That makes it the opinion of the stated CARDINAL.

That said CARDINAL later becomes POPE, does not make his prior musings a matter of Church Doctrine, Dogma, or Discipline.

 

[Freshman88]

I have no problem dealing with your content.

You made a statement of FACT, based on the OPINION of someone who was then a CARDINAL.

That does not make it FACT. That makes it the opinion of the stated CARDINAL.

That said CARDINAL later becomes POPE, does not make his prior musings a matter of Church Doctrine, Dogma, or Discipline.

These are not musings, they come from a published work.
He is not only a former cardinal who had a very important position, but also a highly distinguished theologian and now our Pope.
His opinion is based on fact. The liberals have taken the liturgy outside of the realm of doctrine and dogma, now the liturgy is nothing more than the expressed wishes of our hierarchy, afterall, just as a liberal will be quick to point out, they had the power.

He may not be a traditionalist, but he certainly joins traditionalists in lamenting certain changes in the liturgy.

 

[ethelzguy]

These are not musings, they come from a published work.

OK, so they’re printed musings…

His opinion is based on fact. The liberals have taken the liturgy outside of the realm of doctrine and dogma, now the liturgy is nothing more than the expressed wishes of our hierarchy,

Again, your opinion. I read here over and over again, how “liberals” have done this or that, ad finitum, ad nauseum. Yet, the Church hierarchy has NOT stomped out these alleged “abuses”. I’ll cast my lot with the Church hierarchy over an opinion on a forum.

 

[MrS]

It also doesn’t change the fact that the Pauline Mass is the OF of the Mass. It’s also every bit as valid, reverent and gorgeous as the EF too…

Valid… yes

Reverent… in many cases, yes, in many

Gorgeous… not sure what you mean.

My personal preference at this time would be a truly proper NO celebration of the Liturgy. But then that would mean removing all, not many, but all of the extra inovations that have been added and which make the proper NO a rare find.

.