TLM Wedding?

[D0UBTFIRE]

I’m getting married in June, and both my fiance and I love the extraordinary form of the mass although we’ve been exposed to it very little. We would like our wedding to be in this form. The priest that is going to be marrying us knows the latin form (he’s like 85 yrs old; plus I asked around). I usually communicate with the deacon about all things regarding my wedding, and I requested that our wedding be in latin, but he says that he personally and the pastor (which is not the priest that will be marrying us) do not “believe in” the latin form. However, if the pastor says it’s okay then we can do it, the deacon himself doesn’t really care that much. But he has doubts regarding the pastor being okay with it. He thinks the pastor will be opposed to it because he doesn’t want the word getting around that they did a latin nuptial mass and having others lining up for it. He is going to ask the pastor and told me to call him later this week to find out what he said.

I’m hopeful it will be “YES” and that we can have it as we want it, but I have some very serious doubts. I’ve been reading about the Motu Proprio “Summorum Pontificum” and it seems that according to that, that they really can’t refuse to allow it. Am I understanding that document properly? Please help me to prepare for speaking to this deacon and/or pastor incase the pastor says he won’t allow it.

Also, I read somewhere that there is the Extraordinary form of the mass (which is in latin), and that there is also the Ordinary form done in latin and that there is a difference. Could someone elaborate on that? What is my priest most likely familiar with and how big of a difference does it make and which one does the Motu Proprio “Summorum Pontificum” apply to?

I also have a lot of questions regarding how it’s done…especially in regards to the music. Is there a book that has the music that is used in the TLM? Is an organist used? Is a choir required or does a cantor suffice? How tacky/inappropriate would a CD be - say for example I wanted a beautiful instrumental Agnus Dei playing during communion but the Church’s musicians aren’t comfortable performing it - could I pop in a CD? (Specifically, does anyone know if Samuel Barber’s Adagio for Strings can be used during the mass?)

If I’m interpreting the Motu Proprio “Summorum Pontificum” in the wrong manner, and I infact to not have some kind of right to have the TLM for my wedding provided there is a priest who is familiar with, I would like to know a lot more about the music. Could I have an English mass with all the music in latin/instrumental, and where could I find this music? (I’m thinking of the Responsorial Psalms and the selection that the music director gave us for the wedding and how much I disliked it). Besides the music, are there any other tips anyone might have on how to make the nuptial mass that is done in the ordinary form a little more traditional that I could incorporate?

Thanks in advance!!!

 

[baltobetsy]

It’s nice to see someone wanting a really beautiful wedding.

I’ll address just a couple of your issues.

A CD is never acceptable. Music for Mass must be live. The Barber Adagio is really beautiful, but associated mostly with funerals. Were you aware of that? We wouldn’t want your guests weeping for the wrong reason! If you decide you really want it, I’m sure a competent organist would be able to play an arrangement of it.

The Ordinary Form in Latin is just what it says. The Mass that you have every day at your parish, only in Latin, not English. You can do the sung parts in Latin and the rest in English if you wish. Check out the Mass on EWTN for a way that combines the two languages.

Now, how about your guests? Are they all Latin enthusiasts as you and your fiance are? Would they be able to follow and to worship with you? Would a significant number of them be totally lost? It’s important to consider this also.

God bless you as you plan your wedding.

Betsy

 

[JRKH]

I do not believe that you are interpreting the Moto Proprio incorrectly.

Having said that, depending on how the church is set up there could be challenges to having an EF mass. I know at my parish the altar is set so far forward that the priest could not stand in front of it. It would need to be moved back. If this is the case at your parish it could be difficult to resolve.
Also, even though you have found a priest to officiate, there is the matter of altar servers. You need to have some trained in serving the EF. It is a bit different than the OF.

Please do pursue this if it is what you want. This is your wedding day. Just realize that there are challenges that will need to be addressed.

Peace
James

 

[AJV]

I do not believe that you are interpreting the Moto Proprio incorrectly.

Having said that, depending on how the church is set up there could be challenges to having an EF mass. I know at my parish the altar is set so far forward that the priest could not stand in front of it. It would need to be moved back. If this is the case at your parish it could be difficult to resolve.
Also, even though you have found a priest to officiate, there is the matter of altar servers. You need to have some trained in serving the EF. It is a bit different than the OF.

Please do pursue this if it is what you want. This is your wedding day. Just realize that there are challenges that will need to be addressed.

Peace
James

Per se, a forward facing altar is not an obstacle to having a TLM.

However, as mentioned there are other considerations - altar serving, and also the music for the Mass. In the TLM, it is very strictly determined what texts may be sung, and so if you want singing you will have to find a choir who can sing those texts. With a Latin NO, there is the same latitude as with your parish Mass as to what can be sung or not.

 

[ProVobis]

He thinks the pastor will be opposed to it because he doesn’t want the word getting around that they did a latin nuptial mass and having others lining up for it.

Would they prefer the others go to another parish to get married?

 

[D0UBTFIRE]

Thank you all for your responses. Could someone tell me what I ought to say to them if they say they won’t allow the mass be celebrated in latin?? I don’t want a confrontation, but I don’t want to just let it go if in fact something else could be done.

Thanks!

 

[kage_ar]

Thank you all for your responses. Could someone tell me what I ought to say to them if they say they won’t allow the mass be celebrated in latin?? I don’t want a confrontation, but I don’t want to just let it go if in fact something else could be done.

Thanks!

If Father and the servers are unable to celebrate the Mass in Latin, then, asking them to do it is about as charitable as asking me to type to you in Portuguese.

Find out where the nearest EF is celebrated, ask the Priest who celebrates the EF if you may celebrate your wedding there.

If your Priest cannot do it and you are unwilling to go elsewhere, then, know that Mass is Mass and start preparing for marriage.

 

[JRKH]

Thank you all for your responses. Could someone tell me what I ought to say to them if they say they won’t allow the mass be celebrated in latin?? I don’t want a confrontation, but I don’t want to just let it go if in fact something else could be done.

Thanks!

Kage’s answers are very good.

If you are refused, Ask for the reasons. If the reasons are surmountable then be willing to try and help the pastor to surmount them. If the reasons seem too difficult then you need to make the Choice of marriage at your parish with the OF or marriage at another parish with the EF.
If the pastor refuses to give you the reasons — Well if you don’t want confrontation, then simply tell the priest since He won’t work with you on this you will seek another parish to be married at.
If you do wish to persue it with him, then point out the appropriate portions of the Moto proprio that say the priest is to do whatever he can to accomadate you and that does NOT include telling you “NO” without telling you why. If he continues to be obstinate about it you could report it to the Bishop and if necessary to Rome.

Probaly though you don’t want to get into all of this. So just be prepared to seek out another parish to hold your wedding at, or accept the OF.

Peace
James

 

[puzzleannie]

I don’t think the MP says a parish must offer the EF to an individual parishioner who demands it, at the time she asks, I think its intent is that if there is a significant group, however small, of parishioners who want this on a regular basis the pastor should do what he can to accommodate, without raising non-issues as barriers. He would do the same, incidentally, for a group of parishioners who wanted a Spanish or Polish Mass. He also has, and always has had, the option of simply saying the OF Mass in Latin.

 

[baltobetsy]

Sorry to repeat this, but I’m really concerned about the guests. Are they going to be left in the dust so the couple can have a dream wedding?

An important aspect of the celebration of the Sacraments is that it is an act of worship. If the guests (worshipping community) are left out because of unfamiliar language or the use of the Extraordinary Form (which may be foreign to the guests), they cannot do their part as intended by the Church. It becomes more of a show than an act of worship.

As I read the OP, this couple does not even regularly attend the EF, so I doubt if their friends and family do. If the couple and their family and friends made up a large portion of a local EF community, then, great, have an EF wedding. Otherwise, give it a great deal of thought. This may be what is behind the priest’s hesitation to agree to do it.

It’s possible to create a traditional atmosphere with the judicious use of a few Latin prayers and some chant or other traditional music, and still allow for everyone to enter fully into the meaning of what’s going on.

Betsy

 

[JRKH]

I don’t think the MP says a parish must offer the EF to an individual parishioner who demands it, at the time she asks, I think its intent is that if there is a significant group, however small, of parishioners who want this on a regular basis the pastor should do what he can to accommodate, without raising non-issues as barriers. He would do the same, incidentally, for a group of parishioners who wanted a Spanish or Polish Mass. He also has, and always has had, the option of simply saying the OF Mass in Latin.

Actually the MP does say this in section 5.3 it states:

For faithful and priests who request it, the pastor should also allow celebrations in this extraordinary form for special circumstances such as marriages, funerals or occasional celebrations, e.g. pilgrimages.

Peace
James

 

[roadsend]

I don’t think the MP says a parish must offer the EF to an individual parishioner who demands it, at the time she asks, I think its intent is that if there is a significant group, however small, of parishioners who want this on a regular basis the pastor should do what he can to accommodate, without raising non-issues as barriers. He would do the same, incidentally, for a group of parishioners who wanted a Spanish or Polish Mass. He also has, and always has had, the option of simply saying the OF Mass in Latin.

According to the most recent Ecclesia Dei rulings a parishioner group is no longer necessary. It is entirely up to the padre saying the Mass.
In reality, the pastor, especially if he has the backing of the local bishop, calls the shots, what Rome says notwithstanding.
If the pastor says no and you really want a TLM, better start early looking for another parish or chapel to hold the wedding.

 

[JRKH]

Sorry to repeat this, but I’m really concerned about the guests. Are they going to be left in the dust so the couple can have a dream wedding?

An important aspect of the celebration of the Sacraments is that it is an act of worship. If the guests (worshipping community) are left out because of unfamiliar language or the use of the Extraordinary Form (which may be foreign to the guests), they cannot do their part as intended by the Church. It becomes more of a show than an act of worship.

As I read the OP, this couple does not even regularly attend the EF, so I doubt if their friends and family do. If the couple and their family and friends made up a large portion of a local EF community, then, great, have an EF wedding. Otherwise, give it a great deal of thought. This may be what is behind the priest’s hesitation to agree to do it.

It’s possible to create a traditional atmosphere with the judicious use of a few Latin prayers and some chant or other traditional music, and still allow for everyone to enter fully into the meaning of what’s going on.

Betsy

There is certainly a great deal to consider.
These are good points but not ones that are insurmountable.
The couple could include in the wedding invitations a note saying that the mass will be celebrated in the EF, they could include a weblink for anyone wishing to learn more about the mass beforehand. They can and should also have missalettes printed up for the ceremony so that those attending can follow along.

This would give them the opportunity to share with their family and friends something that they find very beautiful and that they treasure. It also provides an opprotuity for people who have nver seen it to be exposed to the EF in a wonderful and very personal setting.

 

[JRKH]

According to the most recent Ecclesia Dei rulings a parishioner group is no longer necessary. It is entirely up to the padre saying the Mass.
In reality, the pastor, especially if he has the backing of the local bishop, calls the shots, what Rome says notwithstanding.
If the pastor says no and you really want a TLM, better start early looking for another parish or chapel to hold the wedding.

This is true and, to a certain extent, the way it should be. However the Church HAS provided a process whereby one can appeal to Rome when we have bishops who are obstructing the legitimate requests of the faithful for a legitimate mass form.
I hope that those who are refused for insufficient reason will use this process so that The Church in Rome can see how well (or poorly) the MP is being honored and implemented.

Peace
James

 

[proudnifi]

I have never seen a wedding in the extraordinary form; I would love to do so. If everything works out, I agree that programs explaining things for guests would be a nice touch. I married a Greek Orthodox man in a Greek Orthodox wedding. Many of our guests (both sides) were unfamiliar with the ceremony, which is quite different from what most Americans would expect, so we put explanations in the programs that we had in the pews. There was a lot of positive feedback. We probably avoid a ton of questions, too, since the bride and groom say nothing - and most Americans are expecting an “I do” somewhere.

 

[D0UBTFIRE]

Some of my family is familiar with the EF and some are not. The majority of the guest are not practicing Catholics. The priest marrying us DOES know how to do the EF, the concern is that the pastor is idealogically opposed to it, which is why I came here asking what to do. The deacon and the pastor I mentioned “do not believe in” the latin is exactly what I was told.

However, I have been doing some reading/thinking and I think that my bigger concern is the music. Beauty is what I’m going for, obviously because it’s my wedding, but also because I think that the Church can be more attractive to all those non practicing Catholics that are coming to our wedding in a more beautiful setting. It’s a matter of opinion, I suppose, but that is my opinion. This is the first time many of them step into a Church since childhood and I feel like the watered down OF with contemporary music that my parish offers (my parish is the most liberal in the diocese) just isn’t going to peek their interests nor draw them any closer to God. However, I think that if we change the music selection just right and keep the English and do the mass in the OF, that it might actually be more beneficial because they could get the message in their language and could see the beauty in the music/prayers like someone mentioned above. The problem is I DO NOT KNOW HOW TO make the mass more traditional with those elements with out just having it done in the EF because the sheet I was given from the music department has very limited and unappealing selections and I’m just not sure where to start looking for music that is more traditional and worried that the singers/organist wouldn’t have the sheet music required and wouldn’t know how to/be comfortable with performing it.

Tips on making the mass more traditional through music/prayers???

Thanks!!!

 

[baltobetsy]

I think your plan is a good one to reach your guests in familiar language and beautiful music.

Are you required to use your parish musicians, or may you bring in your own? In some parishes, there is an agreement that the parish musicians (organist & cantor) must be paid, whether you use them or bring in your own. If you have to pay them anyway, perhaps you could meet with them to see if they are capable of and interested in doing better music than they usually offer. They might be thinking, “Ahh, finally! Someone with good taste! Who knew anyone in this parish would actually want good music?!” Or not. If they turn out to be unable or unwilling to provide the kind of music you would like, see if you can bring in another organist and soloist, or even a small group of singers.

If all your area Catholic churches are a musical wasteland, you can try Episcopal churches. They usually place a high value on good music, and might have an organist you could hire, and even a few singers from their paid choirs.

I’ve been a wedding soloist for many years, and would be happy to help you choose some music. CAF member Sarabande is also a classical singer with a lot of wedding experience. I’m sure she could be of assistance as well - she’s way busier than I am and would probably have even more good suggestions than I do. Finding the sheet music is not a problem with today’s Internet access. Just make sure your organist is comfortable playing this stuff.

You might find some examples of music you would like on YouTube or I-Tunes by searching for traditional or classical wedding music. Amazon.com would also work, since you can listen to samples of the music they have for sale.

Best wishes with your planning.
Betsy

 

[roadsend]

This is true and, to a certain extent, the way it should be. However the Church HAS provided a process whereby one can appeal to Rome when we have bishops who are obstructing the legitimate requests of the faithful for a legitimate mass form.
I hope that those who are refused for insufficient reason will use this process so that The Church in Rome can see how well (or poorly) the MP is being honored and implemented.

Peace
James

True. Folks should appeal any unjust pastoral decision of this nature.
However, Rome is a very busy place. Considering the time appeals to Rome can take, they would be wise to plan an alternative location to insure that their marriage will take place while they are still of childbearing age.

 

[JRKH]

True. Folks should appeal any unjust pastoral decision of this nature.
However, Rome is a very busy place. Considering the time appeals to Rome can take, they would be wise to plan an alternative location to insure that their marriage will take place while they are still of childbearing age.

Very true. I did not mean to imply that this would be a solution in this particular case, only that we should not be afraid to appeal to Rome whe it is obvious that a bishop is not acting appropriately.
Such action can have subtle effects like preventing “liberal” Bishops and priests from being elevated due to “black marks” on their records. Thus, over time, as seminaries produce men trained in the EF, Bishops are installed who are not opposed to it, and more people have a chance to attend and make a real choice as to which they prefer, the EF will take it’s legitimate place side by side with the OF.
As much as we would like to hurry the process along, it is just going to take time.

Peace
James

 

[benedictgal]

Very true. I did not mean to imply that this would be a solution in this particular case, only that we should not be afraid to appeal to Rome whe it is obvious that a bishop is not acting appropriately.
Such action can have subtle effects like preventing “liberal” Bishops and priests from being elevated due to “black marks” on their records. Thus, over time, as seminaries produce men trained in the EF, Bishops are installed who are not opposed to it, and more people have a chance to attend and make a real choice as to which they prefer, the EF will take it’s legitimate place side by side with the OF.
As much as we would like to hurry the process along, it is just going to take time.

Peace
James

Actually, when it comes to something like this, the Ecclesia Dei commission (now a part of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) does not drag its feet. In fact, if one tries to contact them by phone and then follow-up with a phone call, things might move a little faster.