To all Christians: On what basis, do you assume that The Godhead (Isaiah 44:6) is equal to The Trinity (The Father, The Word & The Holy Ghost.....or..

[Thorwald]

Please tell me the verses in the Bible, that support your belief, and why you think these same verses support your belief.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

At the end of St Matthew’s gospel, we are told to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and The Holy Spirit. Note, it was “name”, not “names”. In biblical times, name was meant to tell what you are. And so, the Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are the same in nature. They are distinct persons, but not separate - for they love with the same will, and know with the same intellect.

 

[Thorwald]

At the end of St Matthew’s gospel, we are told to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and The Holy Spirit. Note, it was “name”, not “names”. In biblical times, name was meant to tell what you are. And so, the Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are the same in nature. They are distinct persons, but not separate - for they love with the same will, and know with the same intellect.

This is your own belief. I am well aware of the scripture that you quote. It does not answer my question.

Also, how do you interpret Rev 1:6, so that this verse ties into your ‘understanding’?

 

[Luke65]

This is your own belief. I am well aware of the scripture that you quote. It does not answer my question.

Also, how do you interpret Rev 1:6, so that this verse ties into your ‘understanding’?

Here we go again, Thorwald with his “I am well aware” when people waste their time answering his questions that he already knows the answer to. Good luck, Thorwald!

 

[Among_Strangers]

Duet 6:4, 5 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD; and you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.

Isaiah 45:22, 23 Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn, from my mouth has gone forth in righteousness a word that shall not return: “To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.”

Phil. 2:9-11 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

John 20:26-29 Eight days later, his disciples were again in the house, and Thomas was with them. The doors were shut, but Jesus came and stood among them, and said, “Peace be with you.” Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side; do not be faithless, but believing.” Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe.”

Acts 5:3,4 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? How is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”

2 Cor. 3: 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

Scripture tells us there is One God. Scripture tells us that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are God. Therefore, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are One God. The doctrine the Trinity encompasses the whole of Scripture thus I believe it.

 

[1ke]

Please go back and read the documents of the Church from the first several centuries. The heresies denying the Trinity-- in every permutation and combination-- were refuted quite well and in great length and the proper interpretation of Scriptures given at that time.

We have no desire to type out what you can read easily on your own. Especially when you seem disinclined to actually listen to what people take time to post.

 

[Scardinoz]

Now I’m curious. Thorwald, on what basis do you believe that The Godhead is not equal to The Trinity?

 

[Thorwald]

Now I’m curious. Thorwald, on what basis do you believe that The Godhead is not equal to The Trinity?

All responses posted, do not answer my questions. In Isaiah 44:6, there is no mention of ‘The Father’ or ‘The Holy Ghost’. In Revelation, there is no mention of ‘The Father’ or ‘The Holy Ghost’. Rev 1:6, seems to identify ‘four’ persons instead of ‘three’. Rev chpt 4, has ‘The Lord God Almighty’ sitting on His throne. Rev chpt 5, has the ‘appearance’ of 'Jesus Christ ’ on the scene. The end of Revelation has ‘both figures’ (ie. Isaiah 44:6) sitting on the throne…no Father or Holy Ghost.

I am well aware, That The Lord God Almighty, is our Father in heaven. I am also aware, that Jesus Christ is our saviour. ‘The Lord’s prayer’ tells us, that it is ‘our Father in heaven’s’ kingdom that is coming. Rev chpt 4, tells us, that The Lord God Almighty is our creator. It also appears, that in Revelation, both figures sitting on the final throne, are ‘The Word’, ‘God’, ‘King of Kings’ and ‘Lord of Lords’. The scripture also tells us, that ‘The Son’ is the creator, and He must reconcile His creations, before submitting Himself and His Kingdom, unto The Father.

The above, tells me, that ‘God’ consists of two figures ‘The Lord God Almighty’ and ‘His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ’. God does not consist of ‘The Father’ or ‘The Holy Ghost’. The Trinity consists of ‘The Father’, ‘The Son’ (The Word, The Creator), and ‘The Holy Ghost’. It is ‘The Son’ that chose to include Himself and His only begotten Son (His redeemer) under one throne, and one name (which He called ‘God’).

Jesus Christ always glorifies ‘The Lord God Almighty’. He never glorifies Himself. Jesus is ‘our brethern’ (albeit, created/begotten above all other sons of God). This is straight from scripture.

Not one person has dealt with the understanding of Rev 1:6. What are you afraid of? ANSWER MY QUESTION. “HOW DO YOU INTERPRET REV 1:6?” Is this not a valid question? Do not go off on some tangent.

 

[Toribus]

Please tell me the verses in the Bible, that support your belief, and why you think these same verses support your belief.

Just wondering mate, why do we have to answer from the Bible?

Anthony OPL

 

[Thorwald]

Just wondering mate, why do we have to answer from the Bible?

Anthony OPL

Because the scriptures tell us to match that which others tell us, to His Word, in order to see if someone is ‘feeding us’ false prophecy. Jesus Christ came to witness the truth of God’s Word. The Word of God ‘is God’. If you change His Word, you worship another ‘God’.

 

[Toribus]

Because the scriptures tell us to match that which others tell us, to His Word, in order to see if someone is ‘feeding us’ false prophecy. Jesus Christ came to witness the truth of God’s Word. The Word of God ‘is God’. If you change His Word, you worship another ‘God’.

That’s a circular argument: “you have to use the Bible because the Bible says so”. I can’t accept that as valid.

 

[Scardinoz]

Not one person has dealt with the understanding of Rev 1:6. What are you afraid of? ANSWER MY QUESTION. “HOW DO YOU INTERPRET REV 1:6?” Is this not a valid question? Do not go off on some tangent.

I’ll offer up my interpretation. As my source I use the King James Version with context included.

4John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,
5and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the (R)ruler of the kings of the earth To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood–

6**and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father–to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. **

When I read this I see Jesus referring to God as His God and Father. It is something like when I was talking to one of my peers and said “My dad is my friend and my father.” My dad, in relation to me, has two labels.

I understand that we are interpreting it differently but I’m not really sure I understand how else you are interpreting it. I’m not very smart, so try to be patient with me.

So far, I gather…
You believe in God, the Father.
You believe in Jesus, the Savior.
You do not believe in the Holy Spirit(?)
or
You believe in God, the Father.
You believe in Jesus, the Savior.
You believe in the Holy Spirit.(?)
You believe in a fourth figure.(?)

Please help me understand what exactly your observation is.

 

[Thorwald]

I’ll offer up my interpretation. As my source I use the King James Version with context included.

When I read this I see Jesus referring to God as His God and Father. It is something like when I was talking to one of my peers and said “My dad is my friend and my father.” My dad, in relation to me, has two labels.

I understand that we are interpreting it differently but I’m not really sure I understand how else you are interpreting it. I’m not very smart, so try to be patient with me.

So far, I gather…
You believe in God, the Father.
You believe in Jesus, the Savior.
You do not believe in the Holy Spirit(?)
or
You believe in God, the Father.
You believe in Jesus, the Savior.
You believe in the Holy Spirit.(?)
You believe in a fourth figure.(?)

Please help me understand what exactly your observation is.

First of all, I have explained myself in posting #8 (in terms of how I understand the Trinity & The Godhead). Secondly, the version of the KJ Bible that you have stated (above), is not the same as mine. Rev 1:6 in my version, reads as follows;

“And hath made us kings and priests unto God and His Father; to Him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.”

Taking into account of all of my other postings on this thread, I believe that ‘The Word’ or ‘The Son’ (in the Trinity) refers to The Lord God Almighty. Jesus Christ, Adam & Eve, the angels, and all of the rest of mankind (that are found worthy), are the Lord God Almighty’s children (ie. the children of The Father’s Son). I believe that the current Christian understanding is wrong. The Father’s Son has been replaced with The Father, Himself. This is why there is so much confusion and lack of understanding. The N/T seems to ‘flip-flop’ between both the current understanding by Christians, and that which I have written.

If I believe that Isaiah 44:6 is true, and that I cannot change the Word in Revelation, then I have to believe that what I have written, as being the truth. Otherwise, I have to come to the conclusion, that there is no ‘wisdom’ to be found in The Bible, concerning this topic. When I read the N/T, and find that even an apostle tells me to “acknowledge the mystery” behind this topic, then I have to conclude, that this same apostle did not seek an understanding from God. He must have used his own judgement (vanity), instead.

I have written out every reference found in the N/T scripture concerning the above topic. This means, every reference to The Father, My Father, Lord, God, Son,etc., and believe me, I ended up with a complete ‘can of worms’, full of contradictions, that cover both understandings that I have stated above. There is definitely something wrong with what is written in The Bible. It does not make sense. In order to believe in one of the two ‘understandings’, I have to ignore the other. If you do not believe me, try it yourself.

 

[Thorwald]

That’s a circular argument: “you have to use the Bible because the Bible says so”. I can’t accept that as valid.

Then you do not believe in The Word of God. We all will be judged against this Word in the end. If we changed God’s Word, and taught others the same, we will be found to be false prophets. Remember what happened to Aaron’s two sons when they ‘added’ to the instructions given to the Israelites by God, concerning how to carry out a proper sacrifice. Remember also, why Solomon was made the richest man in the world.

 

[Thorwald]

Here we go again, Thorwald with his “I am well aware” when people waste their time answering his questions that he already knows the answer to. Good luck, Thorwald!

Every time that I ask a question, those that respond, seem to think that I haven’t read the Bible. It is because I have read the Bible (many times), that I ask the questions that I do. The responses to my questions, are more often than not, answering some other question, that I did not ask. Please ‘re-read’ my thread and the postings to it (above), and tell me, what wisdom or knowledge (ie. answer) was given unto me, by those that posted.

I have copies of many different Bibles; KJV (…not the New KJV), NIV, Qu’ran, etc. I have corresponded with many different ministers of various ‘one God’ religions. I want to know why people believe in their specific faith, and what the differences between faiths are. Is there something wrong with this? When I ask a question, I want to know ‘why the respondent responded in the way in which they did’. I want to compare my understanding with theirs, but at the same time, I want to avoid ‘getting off of topic’.

 

[Toribus]

Then you do not believe in The Word of God. We all will be judged against this Word in the end. If we changed God’s Word, and taught others the same, we will be found to be false prophets. Remember what happened to Aaron’s two sons when they ‘added’ to the instructions given to the Israelites by God, concerning how to carry out a proper sacrifice. Remember also, why Solomon was made the richest man in the world.

And that’s a fallacious conditional. It does not follow that IF {I challenge your reason for demanding the use of Sacred Scripture} THEN {I do not “believe” in Sacred Scripture}.

I may believe, or I may not, but my challenge of your reasons for demanding I use it in argument does not in any way indicate either way.

What I am trying to understand is, do you have any reason for demanding the use of Scripture outside Scripture itself, or do you not? Please understand that as Catholics we have to answer these questions ourselves, but before there can be any meaningful discussion between us we must be sure that we understand the foundations in the same way.

 

[Thorwald]

And that’s a fallacious conditional. It does not follow that IF {I challenge your reason for demanding the use of Sacred Scripture} THEN {I do not “believe” in Sacred Scripture}.

I may believe, or I may not, but my challenge of your reasons for demanding I use it in argument does not in any way indicate either way.

What I am trying to understand is, do you have any reason for demanding the use of Scripture outside Scripture itself, or do you not? Please understand that as Catholics we have to answer these questions ourselves, but before there can be any meaningful discussion between us we must be sure that we understand the foundations in the same way.

If you are not using scripture in order to guide you, then what are you using? What is the point of having a Bible at all, if you can choose when to follow it, change it, or ignore it? I don’t understand your logic. It appears to me, that you have come up with ‘your own’ set of laws, instructions, beliefs, etc., etc. Where did these come from? Who authorized them?

Jesus Christ is ‘The True Witness’ as to the Word of God. Are you stating that He did not know what He was talking about, and that He chose to reveal some ‘other’ messages to a few, but not to the rest of the world? I simply do not understand what you are trying to say.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

If you are not using scripture in order to guide you, then what are you using? What is the point of having a Bible at all, if you can choose when to follow it, change it, or ignore it? I don’t understand your logic. It appears to me, that you have come up with ‘your own’ set of laws, instructions, beliefs, etc., etc. Where did these come from? Who authorized them?

Jesus Christ is ‘The True Witness’ as to the Word of God. Are you stating that He did not know what He was talking about, and that He chose to reveal some ‘other’ messages to a few, but not to the rest of the world? I simply do not understand what you are trying to say.

Hello,

I will try in my most humble way to answer your questions to the best of m ability.

First in the beginning God says let us make man in our own image. That lets me know that there is more that one dimension to God. we also are told in scripture that there is but one true God. So now we know from the Bible that there is but one God but with more that one dimension.

Then we have the Gospel tell us that in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God and the word became flesh ( our Lord Jesus Christ) Now Jesus refers to God and the Father and he as the Son we now have 2 parts of the One God. Jesus also tells us that he will not leave us alone that after he has returned to the Father he will send the comforter ( Holy Ghost) to be with us Always.
thus completing the Holy Trinity.

Also remember that we are graced with the New testament now, but the early church did not have it we are told to go to the Church. the Church has the Authority given by Christ to the Apostles pasted on through the bishops to this day.

Peace Brother,

 

[Thorwald]

Hello,

I will try in my most humble way to answer your questions to the best of m ability.

First in the beginning God says let us make man in our own image. That lets me know that there is more that one dimension to God. we also are told in scripture that there is but one true God. So now we know from the Bible that there is but one God but with more that one dimension.

This is your first mistake. The Lord God Almighty & Jesus Christ, His Son, are in the image of man. They both look like us, They always have. The angels also look like us. John witnessed this in Revelation. Angels have also appeared unto many on this earth. God can ‘appear’ unto us in any form that He desires, due to His power. This does not mean, that His true image, is not in the image of man. If the Word of God tells me that man was created in the image of God, why do you put ‘parameters’ on what this means. It means (and is meant to mean) exactly what it says. By changing His Word, you lead people to believe otherwise, thus making you a false prophet. I have been in the presence of both of them, in a vision. I have seen them. I no longer have any doubt, nor will I believe ‘your version of understanding’.

Then we have the Gospel tell us that in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God and the word became flesh ( our Lord Jesus Christ) Now Jesus refers to God and the Father and he as the Son we now have 2 parts of the One God. Jesus also tells us that he will not leave us alone that after he has returned to the Father he will send the comforter ( Holy Ghost) to be with us Always.
thus completing the Holy Trinity.

This is your second mistake. The Lord God Almighty is ‘The Word’. He is The Father’s Son. He is part of The Trinity. Jesus Christ was begotten of The Son in His ‘express image’. He is also ‘The Word’, but cannot ‘change’ The Word. He can only witness the truth of it, as He did on earth. He is in total subjection to The Lord God Almighty, as much as The Lord God Almighty is in total subjection to The Father. All four were present in the vision that I had. I could not see ‘The Father’ or ‘The Holy Ghost’, but was made aware that they ‘controlled’ the vision. God (The Lord God Almighty and His Son) were in total ‘submission/subjection’ to The Father. The current Christian understanding of the Trinity & Godhead, is false.

Also remember that we are graced with the New testament now, but the early church did not have it we are told to go to the Church. the Church has the Authority given by Christ to the Apostles pasted on through the bishops to this day.

I understand what you are telling me here. Remember, however, only God ‘owns’ His Word. Through His works and those of The Holy Ghost (of course using man to carry out these works), the Bible was eventually created. Unfortunately, in the process of this ‘creation’, man-made doctrines were added, that were not ‘approved’ by God. It was not an ‘accident’ that the Protestant Reformation took place. This was the work of God. He had to correct the ‘errors’ (delete the additions), before starting to ‘graft back in’ His chosen people, the Israelites. Remember, that all of the Word given unto Christians, came by way of a specific ‘line of descendancy’ from Adam to Christ (which includes the Isrealites, the chosen children of God). No other ‘line’ has ever been given the wisdom, knowledge or understanding, needed to ‘teach’ these chosen people. Any assumption that others may have in this regards, is totally false. They have been (and still are) annointed above all other peoples on this earth. If you are not an Israelite, then you can teach an Israelite, nothing.

Peace Brother,

Peace be unto you, also. What I have written above, is the truth. I cannot change it. What you believe,…you believe.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Peace be unto you, also. What I have written above, is the truth. I cannot change it. What you believe,…you believe.

Dear Brother,

I have added nor have I deleted anything form what the Bible tells us of God or the Trinity.
I form my beliefs for Scripture and the teaching of the Church as Jesus instructed us to do. If i have come to wrong conclusions, then I through myself on Gods mercy. I did my best to answer your question I never put any parameters on the power of God or his ability on how he can manifest himself to us.

I question myself in even responding as I read what you have written I have no idea from what bases you are coming from. So I will leave you with this.

May God’s face shine upon you and bring you peace. Amen