To All Christians:What if Adam had not eaten the fruit? Would Jesus exist?

[Izdaari]

Is sin the cause of incarnation or just the crucifixion?
Christians believe that god the Son took flesh, became Jesus of Nzareth- The God-man, and dies to save us. I mean to ask would Jesus Christ the God-man have existed (incarnation) had man not fallen? Not Would God the Son/the Word exist- He does from eternity.

What do you think?

I agree that God the Son, the Logos, the Word, always existed.

But if the Fall had not happened, perhaps the Son would still have chosen to incarnate as a teacher, but the Crucifixion and Resurrection would not have been necessary.

 

[ZDHayden]

Our Lord and Savior would have become Incarnate even if our first parents or even any of their children had not sinned. But why? Think on Genesis 1:27:

And God made man, according to the image of God he made him, male and female he made them. (Brenton’s translation of the Septuagint)

The word image is the same as the word icon, that is, we, from the creation of Adam and Eve, have been made as Icons of the Lord. This means that we, from the beginning, have the purpose of worshipping the Divine Trinity in the fullness of His truth, and true worship of the true God is possible only in unity with Him being worshipped. God and Man are in essence separated, and the Son, Who is the template of our creation, would, even without Ancestral Sin would have become Incarnate and taken upon Himself a human flesh, a human soul, a human will in order to unite human flesh, soul and will to the Divine Creator, making it possible for us creatures to become united with God.

It is because our first parents sinned and sin entered into the world that Christ had to take upon himself the sins of the world in His baptism and to be tempted in the desert. It was because through their sin death entered the world, insomuch as all have sinned, that Christ had to die and be raised again. Christ redeemed us entirely through His taking on of human meat, human soul and human will. And He conquered death and sin, freeing that which He took upon Himself and lifting it all to His Father.

This is why we consume Him in the Blessed Sacrament; why we celebrate the Liturgy; why we have sacraments: to minister to soul and body and will and unite us to God. We would have all of that even if our first parents had not sinned, although they probably would appear different to what we see now.

This, at least, is my view.

 

[SteveVH]

Our Lord and Savior would have become Incarnate even if our first parents or even any of their children had not sinned. But why? Think on Genesis 1:27: The word image is the same as the word icon, that is, we, from the creation of Adam and Eve, have been made as Icons of the Lord. This means that we, from the beginning, have the purpose of worshipping the Divine Trinity in the fullness of His truth, and true worship of the true God is possible only in unity with Him being worshipped. God and Man are in essence separated, and the Son, Who is the template of our creation, would, even without Ancestral Sin would have become Incarnate and taken upon Himself a human flesh, a human soul, a human will in order to unite human flesh, soul and will to the Divine Creator, making it possible for us creatures to become united with God.

I agree with nearly everything you said, however, if Adam and Eve had not committed the original sin then we would not have been separated from God in the first place and therefore would not need Christ to reunite us with God.

 

[ZDHayden]

I agree with nearly everything you said, however, if Adam and Eve had not committed the original sin then we would not have been separated from God in the first place and therefore would not need Christ to reunite us with God.

However, God and Man are of different natures. Man could not be united with God until the nature of Man was united to the nature of God in Jesus, the God-Man. Until then, even without sin, there was a chasm between God and Man because God the Holy, God the Mighty, God the Immortal from eternity is not finite and mortal. It is only through Christ that we men have hope of union with God, partly because we are sinners, but partly also because we are not by nature divine. Christ in His Incarnation has become the bridge between the human and the divine, because in Him the two are present.

Without sin, we would have infinitely better relations with God, and indeed we would have no need for repentance and sin would not be a deterrent in our relationship with Him, but without the Incarnation of the Word, we could not become one with Him. That, I believe, is the ultimate purpose of the Christian life. Remember St. Athanasius:

God became man so that men might become gods.

Or Christ’s injunction at the end of Matthew chapter five:

Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect. (D-R)

or even in the Psalms:

I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you children of the Most High. (Psalm lxxxiii:6, Brenton’s)

 

[lesser_brother]

I agree with nearly everything you said, however, if Adam and Eve had not committed the original sin then we would not have been separated from God in the first place and therefore would not need Christ to reunite us with God.

“Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by Me.” (Jn. 14:6).

The Incarnate Word brings man to the Father - not even Adam (“no man”) could come to the Father except through Jesus. Christ comes as Mediator regardless of sin; but because of sin He also comes in a way that He can redeem us (suffering, death).

In other words, the Redemption presupposes the Incarnation, but the Incarnation does not necessarily presuppose the Redemption since He is always “the way, the truth and the life” - “Jesus the same yesterday, today and forever” (Heb 13:8). The Incarnation stand on its own as the greatest work of divine love; whereas the work of the Redemption depends on the Incarnation.

See this link: Christ’s mediation

 

[lesser_brother]

I agree that God the Son, the Logos, the Word, always existed.

But if the Fall had not happened, perhaps the Son would still have chosen to incarnate as a teacher, but the Crucifixion and Resurrection would not have been necessary.

See the post above.

I would also add that (and check out the links) Colossians 1:15-20 clearly reveals that Jesus, the Incarnate Word, is the center of creation, not because of any human need, but simply because God willed the Incarnation first and then He predestined us in Him.

 

[ZDHayden]

The Incarnate Word brings man to the Father - not even Adam (“no man”) could come to the Father except through Jesus. Christ comes as Mediator regardless of sin; but because of sin He also comes in a way that He can redeem us (suffering, death).

In other words, the Redemption presupposes the Incarnation, but the Incarnation does not necessarily presuppose the Redemption since He is always “the way, the truth and the life” - “Jesus the same yesterday, today and forever” (Heb 13:8). The Incarnation stand on its own as the greatest work of divine love; whereas the work of the Redemption depends on the Incarnation.

Very nicely put: clear, concise and understandable. I wish I would have responded as such!