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Richard_Kastner
Guest
The original sin was not committed by Adam or Eve but by Lucifer in heaven.
To All Christians:What if Adam had not eaten the fruit? Would Jesus exist?
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Telstar
Guest
I have to disagree with that. If that were true, then the fallen angels would have had the opportunity to be redeemed, but there is no redemption for them. Angels are a totally different creation from mankind. They don’t have ‘souls’ as we do. The fall of mankind was where original sin came from that required our redemption and reconciliation with God. No doubt that the first sign of evil came from Lucifer and his fallen angels, but not original sin as far as mankind is concerned. It definitely played a role in it, though.
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Matt_Tiza
Guest
What do you guys think of this?
Go back to classical theology and consider the teaching that God exists outside of space and time viewing all of the universe, past, present, and future at once. He cannot be moved. His Will is absolute.
How could He have done anything any differently when He created everything, all time and space, with one purpose in mind? It is all according to His plan. We can only hope to understand it from our limited perspective.
It goes along with the idea that WE PRAY TO ACCEPT GOD’S WILL that it will CHANGE US not to change His Will which is impossible to alter. We pray for understanding and faith in Him, not magical healing based on our own wishes.
Go back to classical theology and consider the teaching that God exists outside of space and time viewing all of the universe, past, present, and future at once. He cannot be moved. His Will is absolute.
How could He have done anything any differently when He created everything, all time and space, with one purpose in mind? It is all according to His plan. We can only hope to understand it from our limited perspective.
It goes along with the idea that WE PRAY TO ACCEPT GOD’S WILL that it will CHANGE US not to change His Will which is impossible to alter. We pray for understanding and faith in Him, not magical healing based on our own wishes.
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Marybeloved
Guest
Angels are spiritual beings, with intelligence and free will- So our souls are actually closest in likeness to the angelic nature than any other part of our nature. But the Angels are purely spiritual beings with full possession of their intellect, which is vastly higher than ours and with full control of their will as they have no emotions or human passions of a lower nature to encumber their free wills. This means that strictly according to nature, the angels are closer in nature to God than humans (who are body and soul), as God is pure spirit, possessing infinite intelligence in absolute freedom.
It is on account of the superior angelic nature and their great intelligence that there’s no redemption for them. Unlike Adam, Satan and the other demons grasped the full consequence of their sin and embraced it unconditionally. Satan due to pride wanted to have no God, to be his own God (absolute Ruler) as well as the God of others- He was envious of his own maker! Some say that God gave him a vision of Jesus (God’s planned incarnation) and the demons refused to bow to a lower nature than theirs (though it was God himself) which they despised. They knew what it meant to be completely independent of God (what we call Hell) and they preferred it in pride rather than being happy under God, so God granted their wish.
-Their superior intelligence and perfect appreciation of the full meaning of their choice is what makes the sin of the fallen angels nonredeemable or irredeemable, unlike mankind- It’s their will to be free of God (Hell) so God cannot force a redemption on them. That’s why it is said that hell was made for the devil and angels, not man.
Peace!
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Marybeloved
Guest
That sentence should be “the devil and his angels”. Peace!
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Telstar
Guest
100% Agreeance!
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Matt_Tiza
Guest
I like to think of Christ as the Word made flesh. In this perspective Satan’s blatant contempt for Christ is clearly contempt for the very Word of God and His Holy Will.
Granted that the angels had such clarity in their own wills as they were not encumbered by the influences of flesh and of the world, Satan’s contempt for Christ and the Word of God is such a tragic sin of pride. To be so proud that you will deny what you know to be true while fully grasping the consequences reflects such hatred that we, as people who cannot see the Divine Will so clearly, can never understand. We are simple beings, confounded by our own flesh, who have never seen the Glory of God on this earth, yet some of us will deny Him out of sheer ignorance. To think that the angels who had an infinitely greater understanding of God in His Glory than we do, would still deny Him is unimaginable.
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KathleenGee
Guest
I would respond by saying yes, there is the presence of evil…and the devil is far greater and stronger than us… so if it wasn’t the forbidden fruit, it would have been through another scenario…that eventually the Fall would come.
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espressoreader
Guest
I’ve been told that even if there was only 1 sinner, Jesus would have come to save that one person. It’s my understanding that God loves us all equally, so we are all of great importance to Him.
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Yerusalyim
Guest
Actually, at least from my research, the church has not spoken dogmatically on the impeccability of Christ.
I believe Jesus MUST have been able to sin. If not, his obedience is meaningless. If Jesus was not capable of sinning he was not tempted. He could not have been like us in all things without sinning. The ability to sin is part of human nature. This is simply one of those things about Christ’s two natures, divine and human, that our feeble minds can’t comprehend. To be truly human Jesus must have enjoyed the human dignity inherent in all people, that of freedom…therefore, Jesus, like all humans, must have had the freedom to choose sin. On the other hand, God can not sin and Jesus is God. God the son took the form of a slave, subjecting his divinity to humanity. In turn Jesus subjected his human will to God the father and reflected his glory.
Unless someone can point me to something from Rome that contradicts this I believe Christ was capable of sinning, yet did not sin. That makes his temptation, his obedience, his death, and his resurrection all that more meaningful.
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KathleenGee
Guest
Interesting reflections…
Sometimes I think we were set up to fail…
But this is the other point…God walked with Adam and Eve in paradise…they could see Him face to face…at the same time Satan existed.
But they chose a forbidden fruit, deceived into thinking they could be as Him. So they had such a prior grace that no mortal had…or ever will have in this world…
So the choice was extremely clear and simple…and they chose the bad fruit over seeing God Himself…what other test could there be???
Sometimes I think we were set up to fail…
But this is the other point…God walked with Adam and Eve in paradise…they could see Him face to face…at the same time Satan existed.
But they chose a forbidden fruit, deceived into thinking they could be as Him. So they had such a prior grace that no mortal had…or ever will have in this world…
So the choice was extremely clear and simple…and they chose the bad fruit over seeing God Himself…what other test could there be???
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Publisher
Guest
Well…I do not believe Adam was an actual real person that had the distinction of being created by God from dust…no…but that doesn’t negate that Jesus of Nazareth is a historical figure…not a “mythic figure”.
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KathleenGee
Guest
Publisher,
Agree…my pastor told us Biblical scholars are speculating that Adam and Eve are mythical…Ur had similar stories of creation with similar characters…and their point was that the Jewish people also drew on these stories to explain where we came from and defining the source of evil in the world…Noah’s ark could also be mythical…
But what was also added in this session is that Truth can be expressed through myth.
Finally, I think to say the important point was that Adam and Eve could see God and walk with Him, but broke faith and trust in Him and sought to be equal to Him…
Also … I am talking off the top of my head…will have to go back to Genesis…I believe there is a part in the beginning chapters…that there was a time in the past when there were those who believed in many gods…as if to say the Jewish people eventually came to believe in one God among their people…
Which brings us to another part, that Catholicism is akin to Judaism as we see God coming to us in a gathering of people, rather than drawing our faith community on individual human persons. We are apostolic.
Agree…my pastor told us Biblical scholars are speculating that Adam and Eve are mythical…Ur had similar stories of creation with similar characters…and their point was that the Jewish people also drew on these stories to explain where we came from and defining the source of evil in the world…Noah’s ark could also be mythical…
But what was also added in this session is that Truth can be expressed through myth.
Finally, I think to say the important point was that Adam and Eve could see God and walk with Him, but broke faith and trust in Him and sought to be equal to Him…
Also … I am talking off the top of my head…will have to go back to Genesis…I believe there is a part in the beginning chapters…that there was a time in the past when there were those who believed in many gods…as if to say the Jewish people eventually came to believe in one God among their people…
Which brings us to another part, that Catholicism is akin to Judaism as we see God coming to us in a gathering of people, rather than drawing our faith community on individual human persons. We are apostolic.
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Matt_Tiza
Guest
I like to think that all of the Biblical stories are true, yet told in a manner that simple people can understand.
For example the Jews were forbidden from eating pork, shellfish, etc. In modern times we know that these foods spoil easily and that trichinosis is common in pork. Yet without any knowledge of germ theory, how could God teach His people about this? Simply forbidding them from eating potentially harmful foods without giving them an incomprehensible science lesson would suffice.
The same is true if you look at the facts behind evolution. The order of Creation listed in Genesis is the same order that we as scientists understand in evolution with humans being created last (i.e. fish, birds, animals, man). For any species to multiple it must start with a single breeding pair as most species cannot interbreed (e.g. the number of chromosomes won’t match). God did indeed create man, as He created everything else. As far as woman coming from man’s rib, perhaps that is a clever metaphor for evolution?
You could say the same thing about the Creation of the universe. Would any of the ancient Jews have understood the Big Bang Theory since they still believed that the sun revolves around the earth? The first few lines of Genesis sound reminiscent of the Big Bang if you read it. Of course, we have hindsight today to make this comparison. God never intended for each of us to understand everything in the universe, but rather only what He explicitly taught us through Christ.
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TypesAndShadows
Guest
Here’s an answer from the liturgy for the Easter Vigil (Latin Rite Catholic). The Exsultet says:
So, given its presence in the liturgy, it looks like this is the view of the Church. Of course, it ties into a Catholic view of free-will and the Divine plan: Adam chose to sin, and this was wrong, and he freely chose it; but God always knew this would happen, and always had the future planned for the best possible outcome. So it was inevitable and bought us a a wonderful redeemer, but it was still the wrong thing for Adam to do, and Adam still had free will to choose it.
I’d imagine other varieties of Christianity answer this question quite differently, because how we see free will varies.
I apologise if I’m repeating other people: I read the thread, but I may have missed this.
“O happy fault”, in Latin “O felix culpa”, is a recurring theme in older music on the topic. For example, the song “Adam lay y-bounden” has the line “nay had that apple taken been, nay had never Our Lady a-been heaveny queen. Blessed be the time that apple taken was…” (I may have misremember this slightly)
So, given its presence in the liturgy, it looks like this is the view of the Church. Of course, it ties into a Catholic view of free-will and the Divine plan: Adam chose to sin, and this was wrong, and he freely chose it; but God always knew this would happen, and always had the future planned for the best possible outcome. So it was inevitable and bought us a a wonderful redeemer, but it was still the wrong thing for Adam to do, and Adam still had free will to choose it.
I’d imagine other varieties of Christianity answer this question quite differently, because how we see free will varies.
I apologise if I’m repeating other people: I read the thread, but I may have missed this.
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KathleenGee
Guest
Acknowledge comments here…
A human being can’t beat the devil and evil alone…and the Tree of Life was the only acceptable fruit tree the first couple could eat…and…
The Tree of Life became the Cross upon which our atonement and redemption was founded.
What if?..the answer is Christ and the Cross and to follow Him…
A human being can’t beat the devil and evil alone…and the Tree of Life was the only acceptable fruit tree the first couple could eat…and…
The Tree of Life became the Cross upon which our atonement and redemption was founded.
What if?..the answer is Christ and the Cross and to follow Him…
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Sam_777
Guest
Since God was walking in Paradise as written in “Genesis 3:8”, so we can safely assume that “Incarnation” had to happen anyway with or without the original sin…
Please correct me if I’m wrong…
Please correct me if I’m wrong…
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KathleenGee
Guest
The reality is Satan existed at the time of Adam and Eve…He was the first, given free will, to serve God or not. He and the angels that turned against God, were expelled by St. Michael and the Good Angels…
But he wanted to take over, he still wanted to take the place of God and rule…so who else could he fight…but to take human beings…given immortal souls, who once knew friendship with God, walking with Him in the garden, Who shared His entire self with Him…they could see God and live…then turned away from Him…so they could be as Him…as gods…by Satan…
How far could one go with temptation? Adam and Eve, because they were created without sin…could see God…what other choice is there really?
The existence of evil already existed before Adam and Eve…this specter implied when God told them they could eat of any tree, including the Tree of Life — the only good fruit actually named…but forbidden to eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil…doing so one would surely die…
And so they chose that, with the deception and seduction of Satan.
And leaving the Garden, the Tree of Life was before them…but they had to keep distance from it as well…only at the time that the Tree of Life becoming the Cross upon which Christ died and atoned for the sins of Adam and Eve and all mankind, could one eat of its fruit…the Eucharist, ‘Eat of Me…and you will have eternal life’…
But he wanted to take over, he still wanted to take the place of God and rule…so who else could he fight…but to take human beings…given immortal souls, who once knew friendship with God, walking with Him in the garden, Who shared His entire self with Him…they could see God and live…then turned away from Him…so they could be as Him…as gods…by Satan…
How far could one go with temptation? Adam and Eve, because they were created without sin…could see God…what other choice is there really?
The existence of evil already existed before Adam and Eve…this specter implied when God told them they could eat of any tree, including the Tree of Life — the only good fruit actually named…but forbidden to eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil…doing so one would surely die…
And so they chose that, with the deception and seduction of Satan.
And leaving the Garden, the Tree of Life was before them…but they had to keep distance from it as well…only at the time that the Tree of Life becoming the Cross upon which Christ died and atoned for the sins of Adam and Eve and all mankind, could one eat of its fruit…the Eucharist, ‘Eat of Me…and you will have eternal life’…
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MorningSong51
Guest
You brought up a good scriptural passage. Also, another passage was the parable of the rich man. Reading from the passage, the rich man wanted to gain eternal life; as he had followed the laws that Christ listed. However, the only commandment he wasn’t able to follow was to give up and leave all his possession behind and to “come and follow Christ.”
The Apostle replied, “Who then can be saved” and Jesus said, "What is impossible with man is possible with God.” What is impossible for man to follow and do (yoke of the law); isn’t impossible for God. We often read that the prophets were to walk blamelessly before God, and to be perfect - but only God is able to create, to make perfect from our imperfections. When Eve picked of the fruit - and ate, we knew that there were boundaries in the garden (a law) and then Eve gave the fruit to Adam to eat. Sometimes when temptations come through our thoughts, we say a prayer for God to help us through the worse of it - we know that the temptation is sinful. It is in the “act” of reaching for God in prayer that He takes action. We have the ability to ask and initiate the call for his mercy.
If Adam sinned, by the one law - Christ came to bring God’s mercy; pardon and kindness to mankind. Adam was created in God’s image and likeness, but Christ was the Word of God, made flesh - God’s pure light. I believe that John 1 gives a insight to this, 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
6 Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ." and that grace was God’s mercy to mankind, to make us perfect in Christ.
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lesser_brother
Guest
The Incarnation is God’s greatest work of love and the centerpiece of all creation. All things were created in view of Christ, so speaking of a universe without Christ makes no sense (sin or no sin) and is not scriptural.
For a fuller Catholic perspective on this “question”, go to www.absoluteprimacyofchrist.org
For a fuller Catholic perspective on this “question”, go to www.absoluteprimacyofchrist.org
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