To all Eastern Orthodox on here, and anyone who has knowledge of them

[followingtheway]

I’m listing what I thought where the differences between Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, are these right?

1. 
   *]Roman Catholics believe in the Immaculate Conception, Eastern Orthodox Christians don’t, believing Mary could sin, but didn’t.
   *]Roman Catholics believe Mary went up, body and soul, to Heaven instead of dying, calling it “the assumption”. Eastern Orthodox Christians believe Mary died and her soul went up to Heaven, three days later her body did, calling this “the dormition”
   *]Roman Catholics believe people who go either to Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory. Eastern Orthodox Christians believe people (although there are some exceptions) go to Hades until the final resurrection. Hades has to parts, Abraham’s Bosom for the good and Tartarus for the bad.
   *]Roman Catholics often use 3 dimentiontal-statues in Churches, but Eastern Orthodox Christians only use icons.
   *]Roman Catholics believe in the “Filioque” meaning that God the Holy Spirit proceeds from God the Father and God the Son (Jesus). The Orthodox Church does not believe the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son and believes it proceeds only from God the father.
   *]that Roman Catholics believe Jesus Christ died to appease the wrath of God the father but Eastern Orthodox Christians believe that Jesus by the cross, was united with humanity in all its suffering and took upon the suffering of sin rather than the wrath of God the father.
   *]Roman Catholics have unleavened wafer-shaped holy bread like Jesus at the last supper or the Jewish people at Passover and Eastern Orthodox Christians have leavened bread symbolizing the Christ is risen.
   *]Roman Catholic Priest can not marry and are not required to have a beard. Orthodox Priests can marry (except bishops) and they always have beards.
   *]Roman Catholics celebrate Christmas on December 25th and Eastern Orthodox Christians on January 7th (or the 6th?).
   *]Roman Catholics are in communion with Rome, and accept Papal jurisdiction. Eastern Orthodox don’t.
   *]Roman Catholics keen often in mass, and usually Eastern Orthodox Christians do except on Sunday
   
   If these are wrong, please make corrections.

 

[RyanBlack]

The Roman Catholic teaching of the Assumption does not exclude the possibility that BVM died.

 

[CountrySteve]

wow i never knew the third one, did Catholics belive this before the schism between the two or did that develop later for the Orthodox?

 

[CB_Catholic]

I’m listing what I thought where the differences between Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, are these right?

1. 
   *]Roman Catholics believe in the Immaculate Conception, Eastern Orthodox Christians don’t, believing Mary could sin, but didn’t.
   *]Roman Catholics believe Mary went up, body and soul, to Heaven instead of dying, calling it “the assumption”. Eastern Orthodox Christians believe Mary died and her soul went up to Heaven, three days later her body did, calling this “the dormition”
   *]Roman Catholics believe people who go either to Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory. Eastern Orthodox Christians believe people (although there are some exceptions) go to Hades until the final resurrection. Hades has to parts, Abraham’s Bosom for the good and Tartarus for the bad.
   *]Roman Catholics often use 3 dimentiontal-statues in Churches, but Eastern Orthodox Christians only use icons.
   *]Roman Catholics believe in the “Filioque” meaning that God the Holy Spirit proceeds from God the Father and God the Son (Jesus). The Orthodox Church does not believe the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son and believes it proceeds only from God the father.
   *]that Roman Catholics believe Jesus Christ died to appease the wrath of God the father but Eastern Orthodox Christians believe that Jesus by the cross, was united with humanity in all its suffering and took upon the suffering of sin rather than the wrath of God the father.
   *]Roman Catholics have unleavened wafer-shaped holy bread like Jesus at the last supper or the Jewish people at Passover and Eastern Orthodox Christians have leavened bread symbolizing the Christ is risen.
   *]Roman Catholic Priest can not marry and are not required to have a beard. Orthodox Priests can marry (except bishops) and they always have beards.
   *]Roman Catholics celebrate Christmas on December 25th and Eastern Orthodox Christians on January 7th (or the 6th?).
   *]Roman Catholics are in communion with Rome, and accept Papal jurisdiction. Eastern Orthodox don’t.
   *]Roman Catholics keen often in mass, and usually Eastern Orthodox Christians do except on Sunday
   
   If these are wrong, please make corrections.

1. 
   The Dogma of the Assumption does not state whether Mary died or not. Most Latin Rite Catholics believe she did die, but that often depends on whom you are speaking to. The Church does not say.
   
   Eastern Orthodox priests cannot marry. They have to be already married before they are ordained. Once married, if they are widowed, they cannot remarry. Bishops cannot be married.
   
   Not sure what you mean by Roman Catholics often keen in Mass.
   
   As to what the Orthodox believe about the afterlife, I think that varies. I don’t think you can make a blanket statement about their beliefs about Hades, Abraham’s bosom, etc.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

1. Belief in the Immaculate Conception doesn’t mean Mary could not sin. She still had free will and so we too would believe Mary could have sinned but didn’t (ignoring complex issues of predestination). Whether traditional Eastern theology about Mary includes the essential content of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception just in different language is one of those debated issues.
2. Belief in the Assumption does not preclude belief that Mary died. Typically both have been believed in the Western Church.
3. This confuses me. I didn’t think Eastern Orthodox denied that the souls of some people go to heaven before the second coming, as your statement seems to imply.
4. I don’t think they use only icons. In fact I remember some rather Western looking art in an Orthodox cathedral in Moscow, and anyway not all Byzantine-style artworks are icons. In the past especially they also had a very strong tradition of mosaics, though I’m not sure how common this is in modern churches. But I do seem to recall something about a rule on how deep a three dimensional piece of religious art could be which pretty much eliminated the possibility of much three-dimensionality.
5. If I’m not mistaken most if not all Orthodox would accept the formulation that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son, and some have accepted the orthodoxy of from the Father and the Son at least as it’s sometimes explained, though they still don’t use it in the Creed (nor do Eastern Catholics, though theoretically they accept the orthodoxy of the teaching).
6. This also confuses me. I’ve never heard any Catholic explain the crucifixion in terms of appeasing the wrath of God the Father.
7. I don’t think anyone thinks the traditional white or near-white host is the shape and texture of the bread used by the Jews, but it has in common the quality of being unleavened (though I think I’ve seen an Eastern Christian cast doubt on whether we know for sure the bread used at the Last Supper was unleavened.) Not that what was done at the Last Supper means we have to do it- otherwise the universal position for receiving would be “reclining” on the floor! Personally considering the symbolism leaven is given in both the Old and New Testaments I’m comfortable with the Western practice of insisting on unleavened bread, but to each tradition its own.
8. Orthodox priests may not marry. Married men may be ordained to the priesthood. Important difference. It’s currently the same in the West for permanent deacons and in a few select cases for priests (in most cases of course it’s mandatory celibacy for priests), while most (not all) Eastern Catholic Churches have the same policy as the Orthodox. In all Apostolic Churches, I believe, bishops must be celibate.
9. The Orthodox also celebrate Christmas on December 25. The thing is, they often use the Julian Calendar, which because of leap year-related issues gradually fell behind the astronomical phenomena the dates were originally related to. We use the newer Gregorian Calendar, which corrected this problem and prevents it from recurring, with the result that we get to December 25 sooner than they do. As for beards, I think you are right. There was a time in which most Latin Rite priests (an exception was made for the Franciscans; I don’t know if there were any other exceptions) were actually required to shave, but that is history. I don’t know of the rule has been retained or resurrected by any religious orders, societies of apostolic life, etc.
10. True. Some Orthodox accept some form of Papal primacy were full communion to be restored, but I don’t think any would accept his universal jurisdiction. This isn’t the only thing preventing the healing of the schism, but it’s probably the most difficult of the hurdles that still need to be surmounted.
11. I assume you mean “kneel.” Not sure what you are saying the Eastern practice is here. Orthodox and most Eastern Catholics stand for the parts of the Divine Liturgy at which we Latins would want to kneel. The practice of standing rather than kneeling during the consecration and surrounding prayers has entered the Roman Rite as well, but illicitly in most circumstances.

 

[Madaglan]

1. Eastern Orthodox do not believe in the Immaculate Conception, but they believe Mary is immaculate, without sin, and ever-Virgin. It seems to me that in RC, Mary could not sin because she was born without the stain of original sin, while in Orthodoxy, Mary was conceived no different than us, and through her deliberate choices, chose not to sin.
2. In RC, the general belief as I understand it is that Mary died. There is some historical disagreement on this. When I took a Mariology course at a Catholic university, the professor said it was fitting that Mary die because her Son died. In Orthodoxy, the feast is called the Dormition–the Falling Asleep of the Theotokos. Orthodox believe that Mary did die, and was “buried” in heaven by the Apostles (if I remember the hymns correctly).
3. Orthodox do not believe in Purgatory, but as to Hades, I do not know. Certainly, the prayers of the Orthodox Church suggest the saints are in heaven, although there is allowance for general judgment after particular judgment, and so the initial places may not be permanent. Fr. Seraphim Rose, while not universally accepted by Orthodox, writes on this in his Soul After Death.
4. Statues are much fewer in Orthodox churches than in Latin churches. I’ve seen some small figurine statues of Orthodox saints, but nothing on the order of the majestic gothic ones found in Latin churches. Relief “riza” coverings of icons sometimes give a slightly 3D appearance, but the two dimensional surface still dominates.
5. Orthodox believe that God the Father is sole arche or source of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone. Orthodox also believe in what is called the manifestation of the Holy Spirit, distinct from procession. The Holy Spirit eternally and temporally is manifested through the Son.
6. Orthodox, especially more recent ones like Fr. John Romanides, are quite critical of Western atonement theories. Orthodox do not believe man needs to be saved from God (e.g. his wrath), but rather from sin, death and the Devil.
7. Leavened bread is understood by Orthodox to signify the risen Christ. The Western Churches used to use leavened bread as well, in the early Christian centuries, before switching to unleavened bread. The Armenian Orthodox (non-Chalcedonian) long have used unleavened bread, and when the Byzantine Christians saw Latins also using unleavened bread, they accused them of being like the (“monophysite”) Armenians.
8. No ordained Orthodox priest can marry. However, a married man, before he is ordained, can marry. Marriage is not an impediment to ordination in Orthodoxy. Bishops, however, must be unmarried. It’s the tradition for Orthodox priests, and men in the East in general, to have beards, but I know some (in the US) who are clean-shaven.
9. Orthodox Christians that follow the Old Calendar celebrate Nativity on January 7, but Orthodox Christians on the Revised Julian Calendar celebrate it on December 25.
10. Orthodox believe that the Pope of Rome has a primacy, based in the Ecumenical Councils, but their understanding is different from the present Roman one in many respects. Orthodox generally believe that the Pope of Rome has place of “First Among Equals” within the Church, but the Eastern Patriarchs and the Roman Pope are not in communion with each other, for various theological and historical reasons. Orthodox reject that the Pope has immediate “universal jurisdiction”.
11. Roman Catholics have daily Mass, while Orthodox celebrate Divine Liturgy on Sundays and on important feast days. Monasteries celebrate Divine Liturgy more regularly than at the parishes. This said, many Orthodox parishes have other services and prayers during the week: e.g. daily Vespers, Saturday Vespers, Akathists, etc.

 

[Nine_Two]

I’m listing what I thought where the differences between Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, are these right?

1. 
   *]Roman Catholics believe in the Immaculate Conception, Eastern Orthodox Christians don’t, believing Mary could sin, but didn’t.
   *]Roman Catholics believe Mary went up, body and soul, to Heaven instead of dying, calling it “the assumption”. Eastern Orthodox Christians believe Mary died and her soul went up to Heaven, three days later her body did, calling this “the dormition”
   *]Roman Catholics believe people who go either to Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory. Eastern Orthodox Christians believe people (although there are some exceptions) go to Hades until the final resurrection. Hades has to parts, Abraham’s Bosom for the good and Tartarus for the bad.
   *]Roman Catholics often use 3 dimentiontal-statues in Churches, but Eastern Orthodox Christians only use icons.
   *]Roman Catholics believe in the “Filioque” meaning that God the Holy Spirit proceeds from God the Father and God the Son (Jesus). The Orthodox Church does not believe the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son and believes it proceeds only from God the father.
   *]that Roman Catholics believe Jesus Christ died to appease the wrath of God the father but Eastern Orthodox Christians believe that Jesus by the cross, was united with humanity in all its suffering and took upon the suffering of sin rather than the wrath of God the father.
   *]Roman Catholics have unleavened wafer-shaped holy bread like Jesus at the last supper or the Jewish people at Passover and Eastern Orthodox Christians have leavened bread symbolizing the Christ is risen.
   *]Roman Catholic Priest can not marry and are not required to have a beard. Orthodox Priests can marry (except bishops) and they always have beards.
   *]Roman Catholics celebrate Christmas on December 25th and Eastern Orthodox Christians on January 7th (or the 6th?).
   *]Roman Catholics are in communion with Rome, and accept Papal jurisdiction. Eastern Orthodox don’t.
   *]Roman Catholics keen often in mass, and usually Eastern Orthodox Christians do except on Sunday
   
   If these are wrong, please make corrections.

1. 
   Without going to deep into these issues, I notice no Orthodox posters have answered:
   1. The issue here is that the Immaculate Conception makes no sense within an Orthodox world view. As far as I know what you said is not doctrine, but it is the prevailing belief: Mary could sin, but did not.
   2. The Eastern Orthodox Church teaches Mary died. There is no doctrine regarding what happened to her after this, however the prevailing view and what has historically been taught is that she was indeed assumed (the disagreement Orthodox have with Catholics here is whether or not this is important enough to be doctrine).
   3. Orthodoxy has no doctrine on the afterlife. While it has declared certain beliefs (such as reincarnation) heretical, nothing has been doctrinally asserted. Purgatory has not been condemned, although it doesn’t seem very popular.
   4. Two dimensional images are the norm in Orthodox Churches. I don’t think anything official has ever been said against 3D images, but I have heard them decried by many.
   5. We believe that the Holy Spirit was sent by the Father through the Son. The Bible (I don’t have verse references on this on hand) spells this out very clearly. The objection to the filioque is based on a number of things which I don’t really want to get into here (You can find a million discussions on the Eastern Catholic forum), but not least among them is the fact that it was impossed unilaterally on a counsular decision.
   6. You accurately describe the Orthodox view.
   7. We do use leavened bread. The theological justification is that Christ represents the leaven. As far as I am aware tradition holds that it was unleavened bread at the Last Supper, as Christ had not yet sacrificed himself (I also imagine it would be difficult to get in Jerusalem at Passover, but that’s my own uneducated assertion).
   8. As has been mentioned, Priests can not Marry, however married men are accepted as priests. Bishops are taken from the ranks of the unmarried priests, whether because they are widows or because they never married.
   9. This is just a calendar difference due to the Catholic use of the Gregorian, and the Eastern use of the Julian. Many Orthodox parishes use the New Calendar (basically the Julian), and so celebrate Christmas at the same time as the West.
   10. Correct.
   11. Assuming you mean kneel, it isn’t usually done. I’ve met some who do kneel on Sundays, and there are certain Sunday’s when it is done (forgiveness Sunday), but by and large it isn’t the norm.

 

[Madaglan]

Originally Posted by Aelrid Minor: 4. I don’t think they use only icons. In fact I remember some rather Western looking art in an Orthodox cathedral in Moscow, and anyway not all Byzantine-style artworks are icons. In the past especially they also had a very strong tradition of mosaics, though I’m not sure how common this is in modern churches. But I do seem to recall something about a rule on how deep a three dimensional piece of religious art could be which pretty much eliminated the possibility of much three-dimensionality.

Just to put out there: I asked a well-educated Orthodox priest whether mosaics were icons, and he said yes. In Orthodoxy, there is a tradition of icon-writing. It is different from painting art, and icons themselves are not considered art. Icon writing is ascetic, accompanied by prayer and fasting.

I’ve seen some modern mosaics in Orthodox churches. Usually, they are in the narthex. I haven’t seen any on the iconostasis or on the walls of the nave.

1. If I’m not mistaken most if not all Orthodox would accept the formulation that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son, and some have accepted the orthodoxy of from the Father and the Son at least as it’s sometimes explained, though they still don’t use it in the Creed (nor do Eastern Catholics, though theoretically they accept the orthodoxy of the teaching).

In Greek, there are two words that translate as “procession” into English. The first one, ekporousis (feel free to correct me on my spelling) is the one found in the Greek NT and in the Greek version of the Nicene Creed. For Orthodox, this verb can only be used in relation to the Father, since the word is understood to mean origination. The second Greek word, pronenai (again, spelling), is not used in the Nicene Creed or the source text in the NT but is used by some Fathers (including Greek) to indicate procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father through the Son.

This second Greek word for procession comes closer to the Orthodox teaching of the manifestation of the Holy Spirit, which is affirmed by the Orthodox Council of Blanchernae.

1. This also confuses me. I’ve never heard any Catholic explain the crucifixion in terms of appeasing the wrath of God the Father.

When I was Catholic, I did hear a little bit of this, but I would not consider it staple Catholic teaching. It also appears in certain Protestant theologies, or in-house distortions of them (e.g. Christ bearing all of God’s wrath due to sin). In general though, I would say that the East downplays the need to “change” God’s view of mankind. The Protestant forensic justification, I believe, tends more in this direction of changing God’s view than do widespread Catholic beliefs.

1. The Orthodox also celebrate Christmas on December 25. The thing is, they often use the Julian Calendar, which because of leap year-related issues gradually fell behind the astronomical phenomena the dates were originally related to. We use the newer Gregorian Calendar, which corrected this problem and prevents it from recurring, with the result that we get to December 25 sooner than they do. As for beards, I think you are right. There was a time in which most Latin Rite priests (an exception was made for the Franciscans; I don’t know if there were any other exceptions) were actually required to shave, but that is history. I don’t know of the rule has been retained or resurrected by any religious orders, societies of apostolic life, etc.

Just a clarification: in the Orthodox Church, there are several calendars in use. The Julian Calendar and the Revised Julian Calendar are two most frequently found. The Julian Calendar is often referred to as the Old Calendar, while the Revised Julian Calendar (AKA the New Calendar) frequently (by traditionalist Orthodox) is accused as really being the Gregorian Calendar, only with the Julian name.

1. I assume you mean “kneel.” Not sure what you are saying the Eastern practice is here. Orthodox and most Eastern Catholics stand for the parts of the Divine Liturgy at which we Latins would want to kneel. The practice of standing rather than kneeling during the consecration and surrounding prayers has entered the Roman Rite as well, but illicitly in most circumstances.

Thanks for decoding the word. I couldn’t figure it out. The Orthodox stand for almost all the Divine Liturgy. Traditionally there are no pews in church. Orthodox believe that kneeling and prostrations are penitential and should not be done on Sunday (the day of Resurrection) and in the weeks of Pascha. This guideline was established at the Council of Nicaea to maintain unity of practice.

 

[Madaglan]

Without going to deep into these issues, I notice no Orthodox posters have answered:

So what does that make me, who posted before thee?

 

[followingtheway]

1. Roman Catholics keen often in mass, and usually Eastern Orthodox Christians do except on Sunday.

Just let everyone know, I meant kneel.

 

[Marybeloved]

No offense followingtheway, but I remember you giving this exact list of “differences” between Orthodox and Catholics not too long ago (October) and there were very many corrections given to you in response- some quite comprehensive. For example, the correction on many of the misrepresentations of catholic beliefs here (crucifixion as “appeasing God’s wrath”, “Mary could sin, chose not to”, assumption, etc etc)- and even some corrections about the Orthodox beliefs were given. But the list you’ve given here is, nonetheless identical- Did you not like the responses and many corrections you got?

Here’s the thread. It could be the case that you didn’t go back to it after you posted, but many things you say here have already been answered and corrected, so you can read the other thread in addition to this one: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8469364&highlight=immaculate+conception#post8469364

 

[Nine_Two]

So what does that make me, who posted before thee?

It makes you someone who hit “Submit Reply” around the same time I hit “reply”

 

[Isaiah45_9]

1. Eastern Orthodox do not believe in the Immaculate Conception, but they believe Mary is immaculate, without sin, and ever-Virgin. It seems to me that in RC, Mary could not sin because she was born without the stain of original sin, while in Orthodoxy, Mary was conceived no different than us, and through her deliberate choices, chose not to sin.
2. In RC, the general belief as I understand it is that Mary died. There is some historical disagreement on this. When I took a Mariology course at a Catholic university, the professor said it was fitting that Mary die because her Son died. In Orthodoxy, the feast is called the Dormition–the Falling Asleep of the Theotokos. Orthodox believe that Mary did die, and was “buried” in heaven by the Apostles (if I remember the hymns correctly).
3. Orthodox do not believe in Purgatory, but as to Hades, I do not know. Certainly, the prayers of the Orthodox Church suggest the saints are in heaven, although there is allowance for general judgment after particular judgment, and so the initial places may not be permanent. Fr. Seraphim Rose, while not universally accepted by Orthodox, writes on this in his Soul After Death.
4. Statues are much fewer in Orthodox churches than in Latin churches. I’ve seen some small figurine statues of Orthodox saints, but nothing on the order of the majestic gothic ones found in Latin churches. Relief “riza” coverings of icons sometimes give a slightly 3D appearance, but the two dimensional surface still dominates.
5. Orthodox believe that God the Father is sole arche or source of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone. Orthodox also believe in what is called the manifestation of the Holy Spirit, distinct from procession. The Holy Spirit eternally and temporally is manifested through the Son.
6. Orthodox, especially more recent ones like Fr. John Romanides, are quite critical of Western atonement theories. Orthodox do not believe man needs to be saved from God (e.g. his wrath), but rather from sin, death and the Devil.
7. Leavened bread is understood by Orthodox to signify the risen Christ. The Western Churches used to use leavened bread as well, in the early Christian centuries, before switching to unleavened bread. The Armenian Orthodox (non-Chalcedonian) long have used unleavened bread, and when the Byzantine Christians saw Latins also using unleavened bread, they accused them of being like the (“monophysite”) Armenians.
8. No ordained Orthodox priest can marry. However, a married man, before he is ordained, can marry. Marriage is not an impediment to ordination in Orthodoxy. Bishops, however, must be unmarried. It’s the tradition for Orthodox priests, and men in the East in general, to have beards, but I know some (in the US) who are clean-shaven.
9. Orthodox Christians that follow the Old Calendar celebrate Nativity on January 7, but Orthodox Christians on the Revised Julian Calendar celebrate it on December 25.
10. Orthodox believe that the Pope of Rome has a primacy, based in the Ecumenical Councils, but their understanding is different from the present Roman one in many respects. Orthodox generally believe that the Pope of Rome has place of “First Among Equals” within the Church, but the Eastern Patriarchs and the Roman Pope are not in communion with each other, for various theological and historical reasons. Orthodox reject that the Pope has immediate “universal jurisdiction”.
11. Roman Catholics have daily Mass, while Orthodox celebrate Divine Liturgy on Sundays and on important feast days. Monasteries celebrate Divine Liturgy more regularly than at the parishes. This said, many Orthodox parishes have other services and prayers during the week: e.g. daily Vespers, Saturday Vespers, Akathists, etc.

I think I might be Orthodox