To All Liberal Catholics

[St_Francis]

I am by no means a Liberal, but I will go ahead and answer this hear.

We need a government that allows us to exercise free will. God gave us free will because of his ultimate love for us, and when we commit sins, we are supposed to be judged and punished by God, not be judged and punished by the government.

The government should allow people to do whatever they want, as long as it harms nobody else. And the people, themselves, should privately deal with each problem on a case by case basis. It is not just a right, but a citizen’s responsibility to stay informed on all issues, and defend his family with force…

Don Machiavelli,
This is not at all the Catholic teaching on the function of government in society. The Church teaches that the government should set things so that virtue is encouraged; your position sounds very libertarian.

Now as to whether oir current way of dealing with certain problems is the most prudent within the acceptable means is another question altogether.

 

[Ben_F]

To all my liberal brothers and sisters, I want to say that you´re just as good a Catholic as I am. I´m a sinner. I definitely wish that my liberal brothers and sisters would seriously re-consider their views through prayer and fasting,but if in the end, if you still vote liberal, so be it. You´re still my brother and sister in Christ. This answers the question for me, as to why so many Catholics support Obama. It´s not that they are bad Catholics. It´s because, they like me, just haven´t gotten it yet. God bless:thumbsup:

 

[Don_Machiavelli]

Don Machiavelli,
This is not at all the Catholic teaching on the function of government in society. The Church teaches that the government should set things so that virtue is encouraged; your position sounds very libertarian.

Now as to whether oir current way of dealing with certain problems is the most prudent within the acceptable means is another question altogether.

Too much government turns adults into children. Virtue is encouraged because ethical, responsible adults who collaborate on private decisions reach success.

 

[St_Francis]

Too much government turns adults into children. Virtue is encouraged because ethical, responsible adults who collaborate on private decisions reach success.

Yours is a circular argument as in order to be ethical, one must be at least to some extent virtuous. You can’t say “Virtue is encouraged because virtuous responsible adults…”

There is an amount of government which turns adults into children, I agree. But that is a far cry from the point at which government encourages virtue.

 

[kama3]

You have not discussed the possibility that people are practicing NFP. I will grant that it seems unlikely that NFP could account for the 20% gap in question, but it’s a factor you haven’t even considered, and that’s a serious flaw in your argument as it stands.

Great question!

First of all, it’s unclear if the Durex survey I quoted included NFP as a contraceptive method. Assuming it did not…

Here: biomedical.pl/antykoncepcja/mlodziez-inicjacja-seksualna-i-antykoncepcja-238.html is an article (in Polish, sorry ) discussing the use of contraceptives by sexually active people aged 13-21. It breaks down as follows:

Condoms - 63.2%, pills - 22.7%, IUD - 2.2%, NFP - 2%.

Also they state that the total use of contraceptives is over 50%. The above percentages do not add up to that but since they surveyed individuals, mostly unmarried, there is going to be overlap – i.e. sexually active unmarried people are likely to use both a condom for STD protection and pills as a birth control measure. (Durex surveyed married couples, which I believe is more relevant for guessing conception rates). On the other hand, that 50%+ is pretty much in line with what Durex reported for couples.

Anyway, I believe it pretty much contradicts the notion of high popularity of NFP. But I will try to find some study on NFP popularity when I have time.

 

[kama3]

But I will try to find some study on NFP popularity when I have time.

Here (Polish): zycieiplodnosc.pl/kw-nr-22010/324-wybrane-srodki-antykoncepcyjne-i-metody-naturalnego-planowania-rodziny-w-ocenie-etycznej-studentow-lubelskich-uczelni

Survey of university students. That one gives NFP use at ca. 20%, however of the NFP users only 16.7% use only NFP (others use it in combination with an artificial method) – which yields 3.3%. This is consistent with the 2% figure from the previous post. Also, this study is going to be skewed in favor of NFP compared to the general population, because the sampled population included country’s biggest Catholic university.

 

[St_Francis]

Here (Polish): zycieiplodnosc.pl/kw-nr-22010/324-wybrane-srodki-antykoncepcyjne-i-metody-naturalnego-planowania-rodziny-w-ocenie-etycznej-studentow-lubelskich-uczelni

Survey of university students. That one gives NFP use at ca. 20%, however of the NFP users only 16.7% use only NFP (others use it in combination with an artificial method) – which yields 3.3%. This is consistent with the 2% figure from the previous post. Also, this study is going to be skewed in favor of NFP compared to the general population, because the sampled population included country’s biggest Catholic university.

Well, they may be attending the nation’s biggest Catholic university, but if they are sexually active and unmarried, then they are not practicing the Faith in that area.

One of the other major problems with the information you are presenting is that there is no consistency about who is being asked what. NFP is usually used at a higher rate among married people than among unmarried people, so a survey asking only unmarried people is pretty much meaningless. And a survey of only university students will also not be representative of the general population.

 

[AHapka]

How is that ethical? That money could have been spent on huge projects like renewable energy or space exploration.

That money shouldn’t have been spent because we never had it to begin with. The ethical thing to do would have been to never have borrowed it in the first place.

I’m a republican, and think we need to become far more isolationist as a country. We try getting involved in too many things we have no business being involved in.

 

[Speedypizza]

I think all of us “Liberal” Catholics should start to get our own people to run for office. The best part of this plan is that then we could start attacking any “conservative” Catholics for not being “real” Catholics if they still vote republican. And please note as soon as we take abortion and gay marriage off the table, you HAVE to vote for the one who supports other Catholic issues, like health care being a RIGHT and the death penalty being IMMORAL if other options (like life in prison) are open.

The truth is if you did get all the Catholics to start voting with you, it would cause this split into a third party anyways. So your republican dreams would still float down the tubes. Please think about what you are really trying to do here, because the church is a lot more liberal then a lot of you seem to think on most social issues.

Pax

 

[Don_Machiavelli]

the death penalty being IMMORAL if other options (like life in prison) are open.

Considering the sadistic things that inmates do to each other (guards being in on it sometimes), I cannot see how life in prison is any more MORAL than the death penalty. Also it’s a slap in the face to tell law-abiding citizens that they have to pay taxes to house, feed, and clothe the felons.

 

[pnewton]

I think all of us “Liberal” Catholics should start to get our own people to run for office. The best part of this plan is that then we could start attacking any “conservative” Catholics for not being “real” Catholics if they still vote republican.

I love this idea. I think all the Catholics here should agree to this. In return, until this happens, liberal Catholics will no longer vote for the Democrats who promote abortion rights. Deal?

 

[Don_Machiavelli]

There’s nothing a law is going to do to stop abortions from happening. Remember that woman who dumped her kid in the garbage can after the prom? Thats what kind of things would be happening if abortion is illegal. Or some mafia family will set up a huge racket based on abortion, like they did with prohibition.

It should really be on a state-level. If you feel strongly about there being laws against abortion, then try and campaign for it to be illegal in your state, not Federally.

It’s not going to be overturned. It is not an important task on the Republican Agenda.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

I think all of us “Liberal” Catholics should start to get our own people to run for office. The best part of this plan is that then we could start attacking any “conservative” Catholics for not being “real” Catholics if they still vote republican. And please note as soon as we take abortion and gay marriage off the table, you HAVE to vote for the one who supports other Catholic issues, like health care being a RIGHT and the death penalty being IMMORAL if other options (like life in prison) are open.

The truth is if you did get all the Catholics to start voting with you, it would cause this split into a third party anyways. So your republican dreams would still float down the tubes. Please think about what you are really trying to do here, because the church is a lot more liberal then a lot of you seem to think on most social issues.

Pax

I still think we should develop a Christian Democratic party in America (think Germany and Switzerland). But I doubt that will ever happen.
but for me (when I’ll vote) you’d also have to get euthanasia, embryonic stem-cell research, and cloning off the table, along with abortion and gay “marriage”. All of these major issues the Church is conservative on. Most of the other ones it is relatively liberal. But even then the Church is socially conservative in today’s world.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

There’s nothing a law is going to do to stop abortions from happening. Remember that woman who dumped her kid in the garbage can after the prom? Thats what kind of things would be happening if abortion is illegal. Or some mafia family will set up a huge racket based on abortion, like they did with prohibition.

It should really be on a state-level. If you feel strongly about there being laws against abortion, then try and campaign for it to be illegal in your state, not Federally.

It’s not going to be overturned. It is not an important task on the Republican Agenda.

Didn’t the GOP House try to pass a bill to stop the part of Obamacare that funds abortions?

So it’s not unimportant to them.

And there would be far less abortions if it was illegal. No questions asked.

 

[Ahimsa]

And there would be far less abortions if it was illegal. No questions asked.

Would the doctor, or the mother, or both, be imprisoned, once abortion is made federally illegal?

 

[Swiss_Guy]

Would the doctor, or the mother, or both, be imprisoned, once abortion is made federally illegal?

“Doctor” for sure, I don’t know about the mother. But I would never be in the situation to decide that since I won’t ever have a job involving politics/government (God willing).

 

[Don_Machiavelli]

And there would be far less abortions if it was illegal. No questions asked.

People use and sell drugs all the time. Those are illegal.

 

[St_Francis]

There’s nothing a law is going to do to stop abortions from happening. Remember that woman who dumped her kid in the garbage can after the prom? Thats what kind of things would be happening if abortion is illegal. Or some mafia family will set up a huge racket based on abortion, like they did with prohibition.

No, the closest we would come to that is an arrangement between a prostitution ring and a doctor. Abortion is not an on-going type of business like alcohol or drugs.

It should really be on a state-level. If you feel strongly about there being laws against abortion, then try and campaign for it to be illegal in your state, not Federally.

The problem is that the Supreme Court rulings keep that from happening.

It’s not going to be overturned. It is not an important task on the Republican Agenda.

A lot of progress has been made since Roe v Wade. One day it will be overturned.

 

[AHapka]

There’s nothing a law is going to do to stop abortions from happening.

By that same logic, drunk driving should be legal.

 

[Don_Machiavelli]

A lot of progress has been made since Roe v Wade. One day it will be overturned.

No, this country’s laws will become more and more amoral as the decades pass.

It will reach a point where the government assigns particular men as birth-fathers, and assigns babies to working families that meet the government’s approval. The father figure will be pushed out of society completely, and I would not be surprised if eventually the government defines the family structure as two women raising children.

Eventually what will happen is society and the government will implode on itself, and private individual people will have to bring order from the chaos.