To All Liberal Catholics

[ProdigalAnglicn]

What the Popes condemned was the abolition of private property altogether. If you make enough to be in the top tax bracket, and you are paying 35% taxes

No, you’re not even paying that, because our income tax is based on marginal rates. You’re not paying 35% of your money in taxes–you’re paying 35% of every dollar you make after your $250,000th dollar. Every dollar before that was taxed at a lower rate descending until there were some that weren’t taxed at all.

If one thinks that it adds up anywhere near to “half” their income, they’re either really bad at math, don’t pay attention to their taxes, or are repeating a standard talking point that sounds like it should be true because it fits their preconceived political views. Especially with all the exemptions these days, even if one is a millionaire there’s no way they will pay “half their income” in taxes. It’s a soundbite and nothing more.

 

[dandingo]

No, you’re not even paying that, because our income tax is based on marginal rates. You’re not paying 35% of your money in taxes–you’re paying 35% of every dollar you make after your $250,000th dollar. Every dollar before that was taxed at a lower rate descending until there were some that weren’t taxed at all.

If one thinks that it adds up anywhere near to “half” their income, they’re either really bad at math, don’t pay attention to their taxes, or are repeating a standard talking point that sounds like it should be true because it fits their preconceived political views. Especially with all the exemptions these days, even if one is a millionaire there’s no way they will pay “half their income” in taxes. It’s a soundbite and nothing more.

I was an independent contractor for a company for a few months before getting laid off and had to save money on the side to pay my taxes. The government took nearly 30% and that was on only a couple thousand dollars. Virtually everything I buy I have to pay 10% state tax on, including clothes, groceries, gas and all other necessities. That’s 40% right there and I am, by no means, rich. Just the opposite. I’m poor.

 

[Contarini]

Why not? If I knew taxation was only going to the poor, to maintain our roads, to protect us and to other things that are morally acceptable, I would have no problem with it. The problem is that most of our money is going to support immoral things. So I do believe that the majority of the money that they are taking from me is theft.

OK, but that’s entirely different from saying that taxation in itself is theft, and continually making the analogy with someone “forcibly” taking your money.

You grant that the government has the right to do this *in principle, *but you think it doesn’t have the right to use such money for immoral purposes. I see some validity to that argument. I think that paying taxes that will support immoral actions is a complex issue–obviously the taxes Jesus and Paul said should be paid to the Roman government went to support some evil things as well, so you can’t simply argue that one shouldn’t pay such taxes. But I would hesitate to say that one is obligated to do so either.

I suppose I differ from you as to the amount of government money that I think goes to immoral purposes. But that doesn’t affect the question of principle.

Anyway, the bottom line is that your earlier language was sweeping and seemed to be saying that the “coercive” nature of taxation was what made it theft. That is the line of argument that I find utterly illogical. To say that the nature of the use to which the government puts the money makes the taxation wrong is an entirely different argument, and analogies with one person stealing another person’s money are entirely inappropriate at that point.

Edwin

 

[dandingo]

OK, but that’s entirely different from saying that taxation in itself is theft, and continually making the analogy with someone “forcibly” taking your money.

You grant that the government has the right to do this *in principle, *but you think it doesn’t have the right to use such money for immoral purposes. I see some validity to that argument. I think that paying taxes that will support immoral actions is a complex issue–obviously the taxes Jesus and Paul said should be paid to the Roman government went to support some evil things as well, so you can’t simply argue that one shouldn’t pay such taxes. But I would hesitate to say that one is obligated to do so either.

I suppose I differ from you as to the amount of government money that I think goes to immoral purposes. But that doesn’t affect the question of principle.

Anyway, the bottom line is that your earlier language was sweeping and seemed to be saying that the “coercive” nature of taxation was what made it theft. That is the line of argument that I find utterly illogical. To say that the nature of the use to which the government puts the money makes the taxation wrong is an entirely different argument, and analogies with one person stealing another person’s money are entirely inappropriate at that point.

Edwin

Fair enough, I should have been more clear. But I do believe, in a Socialist way, that taking more from one person in order to give it to another is wrong. And this is coming from someone who is poor, with health problems and could definitely benefit from such a system. I do not believe that others that work hard for their money should be supporting me. If they choose to do so on their own, bless them. But I, in no way, expect it.

 

[theswan]

Good for you do not accept what you do not want.

I still say envy pure and simple-it burns people to think someone is getting over on them. The whole sky is falling stuff I do not buy into.

I say if you really believe any form of welfare is untolerable both for the reciever and those burdened with paying for them ok you have a good point.

I however read a little between the lines that it is envy-someone is getting something they did not earn with hard work like you!

Its mine mine mine! He’s a bum and don’t deserve a handout. I sweat to make a living!

We are nothing! Jesus lord has allowed up to share His abundance!

The workers got the agreed upon wage but have envy because some did not “earn” it as they worked but part of the day.

Europe will not fall apart as chicken littles here are saying. look at history!

Or maybe i’m wrong and Italy will have a tag sale. 'Leaning tower" 2 million lire! Stop the fear tactics!

You hate someone gettting medicare or welfare? Check your heart

 

[dandingo]

Good for you do not accept what you do not want.

I still say envy pure and simple-it burns people to think someone is getting over on them. The whole sky is falling stuff I do not buy into.

I say if you really believe any form of welfare is untolerable both for the reciever and those burdened with paying for them ok you have a good point.

I however read a little between the lines that it is envy-someone is getting something they did not earn with hard work like you!

Its mine mine mine! He’s a bum and don’t deserve a handout. I sweat to make a living!

We are nothing! Jesus lord has allowed up to share His abundance!

The workers got the agreed upon wage but have envy because some did not “earn” it as they worked but part of the day.

Europe will not fall apart as chicken littles here are saying. look at history!

Or maybe i’m wrong and Italy will have a tag sale. 'Leaning tower" 2 million lire! Stop the fear tactics!

You hate someone gettting medicare or welfare? Check your heart

Nobody here, including me, has stated that we hate anyone, much less someone getting medicare or welfare but I appreciate you putting words into our mouths. I also appreciate you assuming that you know what is in someone else’s heart. What I don’t agree with is the government distributing my money because they think that they can do better with it than we can. What I don’t agree with is someone who accepts welfare because they do not want to work, not because they can’t. There are plenty of people who need help. I have no problem with that. But there is also so much wasteful spending and that needs to be fixed.

If you don’t see Europe imploding then you must not live on earth. Greece is bankrupt and must be bailed out by someone. Italy is on the brink of bankruptcy. Spain, Portugal and Ireland are all in big trouble. We are $15 TRILLION in debt. We are in so much debt that even if every United States citizen was taxed 100% of their income, it still would not cover our deficit.

 

[Holly3278]

I personally prefer the term “dissenting Catholic”. When I think of a liberal Catholic, I tend to equate that term with “dissenting Catholic”.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Nobody here, including me, has stated that we hate anyone, much less someone getting medicare or welfare but I appreciate you putting words into our mouths. I also appreciate you assuming that you know what is in someone else’s heart. What I don’t agree with is the government distributing my money because they think that they can do better with it than we can. What I don’t agree with is someone who accepts welfare because they do not want to work, not because they can’t. There are plenty of people who need help. I have no problem with that. But there is also so much wasteful spending and that needs to be fixed.

If you don’t see Europe imploding then you must not live on earth. Greece is bankrupt and must be bailed out by someone. Italy is on the brink of bankruptcy. Spain, Portugal and Ireland are all in big trouble. We are $15 TRILLION in debt. We are in so much debt that even if every United States citizen was taxed 100% of their income, it still would not cover our deficit.

There is indeed an incredible amount of fraud. In my city, it is very common for people to approach you in a grocery store and offer to sell their Lone Star card (what used to be food stamps) for half of its value, in exchange for cash. They get to buy drugs and booze with the cash, you get twice the food for the dollar amount. Win-win, right? Except those people have asked the government for help to FEED THEIR CHILDREN, not to go out and buy drugs and booze! THAT is what a lot of your tax money is supporting, not genuine distress. I cannot tell you how many people I have seen using a Lone Star card who take their groceries out to an Escalade or some other nice luxury SUV. If you can drive an SUV, get your nails done, wear nice clothing, you DO NOT NEED food stamps!

 

[domandcarols]

I personally prefer the term “dissenting Catholic”. When I think of a liberal Catholic, I tend to equate that term with “dissenting Catholic”.

Me too.

 

[theswan]

Too bad if it were not true it would not cause resentment there are a lot of people who hate I can read between the lines

I stand by my disgust of those who want to end welfare and throw out red herring to throw off the truth that it helps millions!

You did not EARN it Christ saw to you abundance. Cast the bread my friends and stop the “dependance” or the country going to hell in a hand basket BS

Glen

 

[theswan]

by the way

Those SUV and Escalade stories are hype and the facts show a small % of cheats. Again that is just an excuse to not want to help.

If I help a million but 100 are cheats who freaking cares?

Oh this one drives a Cadillac or this one boughtlobster with food stamps Do you really believe this is systemic? Do you know what a mom and child get a month? $469 you live it up on that!

If a person is caught cheating they can go to jail.

A friend of mine is a professor of economics and he assures me not to worry. Headlines are there to scare you!

G

 

[estesbob]

Too bad if it were not true it would not cause resentment there are a lot of people who hate I can read between the lines

I stand by my disgust of those who want to end welfare and throw out red herring to throw off the truth that it helps millions!

You did not EARN it Christ saw to you abundance. Cast the bread my friends and stop the “dependance” or the country going to hell in a hand basket BS

Glen

I dont know about bread but there is abundance of straw being cast about…,

 

[brjoseph]

Tell you what. I’m pro-life, pro-family. I have an appropriate level of hostility toward the Obama administration and strongly favor a religious/moral exemption clause for the impending disaster of Obamacare.
That being said, I’m also very much pro-union, and DO support sweeping health care reform in this country. (Though the abysmal Obama plan is never going to work because it fails to address the real core issues needed to really fix our country’s health care plan.
I can not, in good conscience, vote for a candidate who doesn’t support fully the working class, because I’m a union man and right now, both parties balance the needs and desires of the rich AND poor on the backs of the working class, which are breaking.
I cannot vote for a candidate who favors wars of aggression or the death penalty; when I say “Pro life,” I MEAN it completely. LIFE is sacred.
Supporting life- at all stages- is our responsibility as followers of Christ. We must be pro-life as life goes on… otherwise we’re just pro-birth, and to heck with the person once born.
I cannot pretend the “free market” is anything but a myth, and cannot support a candidate who believes in unfettered capitalism. I cannot and will not support finance over humanity. I cannot pretend one party of corrupt, greedy politicians is better than the other or in any real way represents our views.
It’s a lie. I can’t choke down one lie over another, even if it sounds better.

I feel (and can defend the idea) that these opinions and attitudes are reflected both by our Holy Father Francis and by the teachings of Christ, the bible, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

So now what? Everyone loves their little labels so much… go ahead.

 

[estesbob]

Tell you what. I’m pro-life, pro-family. I have an appropriate level of hostility toward the Obama administration and strongly favor a religious/moral exemption clause for the impending disaster of Obamacare.
That being said, I’m also very much pro-union, and DO support sweeping health care reform in this country. (Though the abysmal Obama plan is never going to work because it fails to address the real core issues needed to really fix our country’s health care plan.
I can not, in good conscience, vote for a candidate who doesn’t support fully the working class, because I’m a union man and right now, both parties balance the needs and desires of the rich AND poor on the backs of the working class, which are breaking.
I cannot vote for a candidate who favors wars of aggression or the death penalty; when I say “Pro life,” I MEAN it completely. LIFE is sacred.
Supporting life- at all stages- is our responsibility as followers of Christ. We must be pro-life as life goes on… otherwise we’re just pro-birth, and to heck with the person once born.
I cannot pretend the “free market” is anything but a myth, and cannot support a candidate who believes in unfettered capitalism. I cannot and will not support finance over humanity. I cannot pretend one party of corrupt, greedy politicians is better than the other or in any real way represents our views.
It’s a lie. I can’t choke down one lie over another, even if it sounds better.

I feel (and can defend the idea) that these opinions and attitudes are reflected both by our Holy Father Francis and by the teachings of Christ, the bible, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

So now what? Everyone loves their little labels so much… go ahead.

So you dont vote?

 

[Matilda_Bennett]

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