To ALL NON-CATHOLICS: help me understand your point of view

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rwillenborg

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To make a long story short, I wasn’t really raised in any particular church setting, and so throughout my teens and 20s I would have labeled myself an atheist, probably an agnostic if I were in a better mood.
Then, in my early 30s, I turned 180 degrees and ran, not walked, to the Catholic Church and haven’t looked back since.
I have to be honest here, when I read Scripture, it screams Catholic to me. Same with when I read the early Church fathers.
So, what I’m asking you for is help seeing scripture, and the world at large through YOUR eyes.
I understand the eyes of an atheist. They were once my eyes. I understand the eyes of an agnostic, too. They were once my eyes. I have NO IDEA how a Methodist, or a Baptist, or a Presbyterian reads scripture. Though I know people of those denominations, I would not consider them terribly learned on Scripture itself. Likewise with non-Christian faiths, though I have friends who are Muslim and Hindu, their ability to articulate their faith isn’t terribly in depth.

So what I’m asking you for is help putting on YOUR lenses.
I don’t expect you’d be able to give a full fleshing out or defense of your faith in the space of an internet forum. But, maybe you could just list highlights? Maybe you could recommend some books? I’m not looking to read some angry and nasty diatribe against the Catholic faith, mind you, but what I AM looking for are reasoned and well thought out articles, essays, books explaining a particular faith, not shredding another one.

And please, I see that this thread could turn into something nasty, and that’s not what I’m looking for. I’m NOT looking for a greater understanding of why you’re NOT Catholic. I am looking for a greater understanding of why you ARE what you ARE. What drew you to that particular faith tradition? And what can you tell me, or what books can you recommend to me so that I could see your faith tradition through the same eyes you do?

Often times, I feel like other people, particularly non-Catholic Christians are THINKING the same thing I’m thinking, but since I speak Catholic-ese, and they speak Baptist-ese, that our words keep floating past eachother. (Not sure if that makes any sense)

Thank you for time.

respectfully,
rwillenborg
 
For anyone who may be interested in understanding Islam, the 40 hadiths of Imam Nawawi is a fairly short but comprehensive overview of virtually all of the major teachings of Islam.

If you have read and understood this very well-known collection of ahadith, then your understanding of Islam would likely be as good or perhaps would be even better than that of most of the world’s Muslims.
 
I too was raised with no religion or even discussion of such.

In my case, I see differently than ALL of the others because I have a “loop of perfection” (as in a jeweler’s loop) that enables me to see the tiniest imperfection in anything. Due to that lens, I can sort Truth and read Scriptures in an entirely different way than just about anyone. Thus seeing the accuracy and inaccuracy forbids me from fully jumping into groups that are led by misunderstandings or promote misunderstandings even by accident, yet I cannot deny the issues in which they are correct, regardless of who they represent. And much to my eternal dismay, that even applies to what I see in myself.

I see Truth on many levels at once and from different perspectives at once. In a sense, I am in ALL churches and groups yet not entirely within any fore I see error (sin) in all efforts of Man. I can be neither fully for nor fully against any of them.

For you to see through my eyes and jeweler’s loop, would be for you to become me and to also be of no other.
 
rwillenborg said:
To make a long story short, I wasn’t really raised in any particular church setting, and so throughout my teens and 20s I would have labeled myself an atheist, probably an agnostic if I were in a better mood.
Then, in my early 30s, I turned 180 degrees and ran, not walked, to the Catholic Church and haven’t looked back since.
I have to be honest here, when I read Scripture, it screams Catholic to me. Same with when I read the early Church fathers.
So, what I’m asking you for is help seeing scripture, and the world at large through YOUR eyes.
I understand the eyes of an atheist. They were once my eyes. I understand the eyes of an agnostic, too. They were once my eyes. I have NO IDEA how a Methodist, or a Baptist, or a Presbyterian reads scripture. Though I know people of those denominations, I would not consider them terribly learned on Scripture itself. Likewise with non-Christian faiths, though I have friends who are Muslim and Hindu, their ability to articulate their faith isn’t terribly in depth.

So what I’m asking you for is help putting on YOUR lenses.
I don’t expect you’d be able to give a full fleshing out or defense of your faith in the space of an internet forum. But, maybe you could just list highlights? Maybe you could recommend some books? I’m not looking to read some angry and nasty diatribe against the Catholic faith, mind you, but what I AM looking for are reasoned and well thought out articles, essays, books explaining a particular faith, not shredding another one.

And please, I see that this thread could turn into something nasty, and that’s not what I’m looking for. I’m NOT looking for a greater understanding of why you’re NOT Catholic. I am looking for a greater understanding of why you ARE what you ARE. What drew you to that particular faith tradition? And what can you tell me, or what books can you recommend to me so that I could see your faith tradition through the same eyes you do?

Often times, I feel like other people, particularly non-Catholic Christians are THINKING the same thing I’m thinking, but since I speak Catholic-ese, and they speak Baptist-ese, that our words keep floating past eachother. (Not sure if that makes any sense)

Thank you for time.

respectfully,
rwillenborg
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The response I get quite often is that I have been poisoned by the Catholic Church and view everything through “Rome-Colored Glasses”. This, however, fails to take in the point that I left the baptist church, where I HATED (or so I thought) the Catholics…
James_S_Saint said:
I too was raised with no religion or even discussion of such.

In my case, I see differently than ALL of the others because I have a “loop of perfection” (as in a jeweler’s loop) that enables me to see the tiniest imperfection in anything. Due to that lens, I can sort Truth and read Scriptures in an entirely different way than just about anyone. Thus seeing the accuracy and inaccuracy forbids me from fully jumping into groups that are led by misunderstandings or promote misunderstandings even by accident, yet I cannot deny the issues in which they are correct, regardless of who they represent. And much to my eternal dismay, that even applies to what I see in myself.

I see Truth on many levels at once and from different perspectives at once. In a sense, I am in ALL churches and groups yet not entirely within any fore I see error (sin) in all efforts of Man. I can be neither fully for nor fully against any of them.

For you to see through my eyes and jeweler’s loop, would be for you to become me and to also be of no other.
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ummmmmm… what??? a “loop of perfection”? Is this a joke? Or an analogy?
 
Well, I was raised Catholic, and left. For me I turned first to Wiccan, then to Discordianism, another pagan faith.

Discordianism is simply about seeing reality through an abstract and surrealist lens. Up is down, down is up, so to speak. There are no false dualities. No such thing as Man/Woman, Order/Chaos, so on and so forth. It’s like looking at the world as if it were a Picasso painting. Everything is nothing. Nothing is everything. It’s almost anarchical. My signature pretty much sums up what a follower of Discordianism is. It is or is not a religion dedicated to Eris, Goddess of Chaos and Discord. Every Discordianism has their own view, and is encouraged to disagree with everything in the faith. It’s all about breaking norms, and is a paradox in and of itself.
If you want in on the Discordian Society
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then declare yourself what you wish
do what you like
and tell us about it
or
if you prefer
don’t.
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There are no rules anywhere.
The Goddess Prevails.
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This is from the book The Principia Discordia. I can really only give you a little bit of information, and I in no way speak for all Discordians. They have a copy of The Principia Discordia online to read at PrincipiaDiscordia.com. I suggest starting there, and if you really want a good look into the faith, check out Discordian blogs, because it’s unique to everyone who follows it. Hope this helps 👍
 
I am what I am because of God’s sovereignty. Only the people from the church I attended witnessed to me and saved my life.
I then read the Bible. After my first reading, my thoughts and emotions were very mixed. I was pleased with how most of what our church did matched with scripture. I did and do have some areas of disagreement.
When I read history after that about Christianity, I read the critical scholars first and then the conservative ones next. I was particulary struck by the different textual streams. Which ones had the more patristic support and which ones did not. That influenced me a great deal. It still does. But ultimately I have to go to a church thats practices and beliefs match with what I read. Thats why I am what I am.
 
FidesSpesCarita said:
ummmmmm… what??? a “loop of perfection”? Is this a joke? Or an analogy?
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It is something only understood by those capable of reading without presumption and thus discussing it is dubious at best since you have to read even this.

The “loop of perfection” is the art and science of applying any truth to itself with coherence to an infinite degree. Jesus’ advice concerning faith is what gets you out of the infinite cycle of doubt and worry that would normally be your state without such faith (and still remains to a degree anyway).

The loop is for those seeking understanding of Truth, not merely acceptance of what someone else has said to be true nor acceptance of priori axioms. The loop is the essence of Logic in that it forbids self contradiction and sustains that “what is cannot also be what isn’t”. Its extended use prevails over the solipsist idea that all is merely perception, that all things are relative, and that some doubtable axiom must be accepted for logic to work.

It detects immutable truth by looping the entirety of itself back upon all within sight, including itself, infinitely in a calculus sort of way. It quickly resolves presumption from Truth and faith from under-standing. Understanding supersedes faith even though faith often precedes understanding.
 
I have been raised in a Christian home and been in several different denominational churches. But since my adult daughter has become Catholic, I have been doing my own search of Catholic websites! Were I born a Catholic! Oh how I wish. Scripture does scream Catholic. I am using the rosary now and praying the prayers of saints and the Virgin Mary. My relationship with God has blown out of the water! The very first day, the very first website (that my daughter directed me to!) I was delivered from 30+ yrs of depression and anxiety! Right there in the middle of Walmart! (I read it on my iPhone!)
God is so good. I wish I come convert, and someday I may.
I believe if people really study the scripture, they will see Catholic all through it!
 
I was raised in a nominal Christian home and evangelical church. I came to the Society of Friends when I was 19.

To me the message of Friends made the most sense in relation to the life and work of Jesus of Nazareth. Through Paul’s letters and the gospels I came to believe there is no ritual or rite or ceremony that can offer me salvation. Through the work of Christ it has all been accomplished…I need no water to “wash away my sins”…he cleanses from all unrighteousness…not through washing the body…he stands at the hearts door to come in and dine with us…if we only are open…we need not bread or wine to receive him…the emblems most Christians use point to the Reality of his abiding Presence within us.

We need no priest or minister to stand in the stead of Christ for us…we each share in his Priesthood and by virtue of this Priesthood we are able to come “before the throne of grace with boldness”…with no need of someone else mediating for us in Christ’s stead.

The baptizing fire of the Holy Spirit is the True Baptism which makes us one in Christ…not water administered by someone who may or may not even believe and live in Him themselves…if we abide in Christ…we are cleansed from our sin…we have forgiveness of sins through faith that he did for us what we could not do for ourselves…and our lives prove our faith as we share in his nature and “become like him” and “put on the mind of Christ”.

My beliefs are rooted not in creeds or books…but in the nature and work of God in Christ and the abiding Presence in our corporate lives as we live as his Body in this world that so needs him in their midst. He alone is Perfect Teacher, Minister, Priest and Friend.
 
rwillenborg said:
Maybe you could recommend some books? I’m not looking to read some angry and nasty diatribe against the Catholic faith, mind you, but what I AM looking for are reasoned and well thought out articles, essays, books explaining a particular faith, not shredding another one.
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CS Lewis’ “Mere Christianity” and “The Screwtape Letters” would be good.
 
rwillenborg said:
I understand the eyes of an atheist. They were once my eyes. I understand the eyes of an agnostic, too. They were once my eyes. I have NO IDEA how a Methodist, or a Baptist, or a Presbyterian reads scripture. Though I know people of those denominations, I would not consider them terribly learned on Scripture itself. Likewise with non-Christian faiths, though I have friends who are Muslim and Hindu, their ability to articulate their faith isn’t terribly in depth.

So what I’m asking you for is help putting on YOUR lenses.
I don’t expect you’d be able to give a full fleshing out or defense of your faith in the space of an internet forum. But, maybe you could just list highlights? Maybe you could recommend some books? I’m not looking to read some angry and nasty diatribe against the Catholic faith, mind you, but what I AM looking for are reasoned and well thought out articles, essays, books explaining a particular faith, not shredding another one.

rwillenborg
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The best book on the gist of Quaker life, thought and belief is “Testament of Devotion” by Thomas Kelly…and “The Eternal Promise” by the same author. They both are simple reads…not heavy into proving doctrine…but giving a glimpse of Quaker life…our lives reflect our beliefs…or they should anyway.
 
rwillenborg said:
To make a long story short, I wasn’t really raised in any particular church setting, and so throughout my teens and 20s I would have labeled myself an atheist, probably an agnostic if I were in a better mood.
Then, in my early 30s, I turned 180 degrees and ran, not walked, to the Catholic Church and haven’t looked back since.
I have to be honest here, when I read Scripture, it screams Catholic to me. Same with when I read the early Church fathers.
So, what I’m asking you for is help seeing scripture, and the world at large through YOUR eyes.
I understand the eyes of an atheist. They were once my eyes. I understand the eyes of an agnostic, too. They were once my eyes. I have NO IDEA how a Methodist, or a Baptist, or a Presbyterian reads scripture. Though I know people of those denominations, I would not consider them terribly learned on Scripture itself. Likewise with non-Christian faiths, though I have friends who are Muslim and Hindu, their ability to articulate their faith isn’t terribly in depth.

So what I’m asking you for is help putting on YOUR lenses.
I don’t expect you’d be able to give a full fleshing out or defense of your faith in the space of an internet forum. But, maybe you could just list highlights? Maybe you could recommend some books? I’m not looking to read some angry and nasty diatribe against the Catholic faith, mind you, but what I AM looking for are reasoned and well thought out articles, essays, books explaining a particular faith, not shredding another one.

And please, I see that this thread could turn into something nasty, and that’s not what I’m looking for. I’m NOT looking for a greater understanding of why you’re NOT Catholic. I am looking for a greater understanding of why you ARE what you ARE. What drew you to that particular faith tradition? And what can you tell me, or what books can you recommend to me so that I could see your faith tradition through the same eyes you do?

Often times, I feel like other people, particularly non-Catholic Christians are THINKING the same thing I’m thinking, but since I speak Catholic-ese, and they speak Baptist-ese, that our words keep floating past eachother. (Not sure if that makes any sense)

Thank you for time.

respectfully,
rwillenborg
Click to expand...
Was born, baptized and raised in a Catholic household. Was married in the Catholic church the first time but was not a great witness to my faith. After a divorce, re-marriage, children, death of my father-in-law, other tragedies etc. I pleaded with GOD in prayer for direction. Shortly after my wife and I started attending a non-denominational church recommended by some close friends. I’ve read and studied scripture, theology, the works of the church fathers, church history etc. etc. I don’t believe scripture screams Catholic as you say but then again that’s probably because of disagreements over certain interpretations. I’ve studied scripture in its native languages and coupled with church history completely understand how the Roman Catholic came to be. I also don’t think scripture can be understood properly without knowledge of the culture and time to which it was written.

Be that as it may I put my life in GOD’s hands and feel like we were led to where we are now. My faith is very strong and unwaivering. I think all Christians struggle in our attempts to follow Christ but our failures are expected because we are sinners. That’s why GOD’s Grace is so needed.

If you have specific doctrinal questions you would like to ask then please specify.
 
OK I was raised Fundamentalist, and converted to Catholicism. I am still shocked when I go into Fundamentalist Churches how lacking there is as opposed to Catholic churches, mind you I only go for weddings and funerals now. But I’ll try to remember “protestantese” as best I can. Most of them are Anti-Catholic, sometimes its a soft-bias, sometimes its really hard-core. Since all other churches came from Lutheranism, we’ll start there. Luther believed in the Priesthood of all believers well actually a twisted very twisted version of it. Anyone can become a Preacher or Minister, whoever the Lay people elect. He also decided that anyone could interpret scripture for themselves. Protestants, almost all of the (minus pseudo-christians and cults) believe that no one has to adhere to a specific tradition, but they can essentially be there own “Pope” Although oddly enough in my case being my own “pope” lead me straight to being Catholic. But for many protestants, it doesn’t. Generally, protestants minus a few denominations are all faith alone, once saved always saved, no works necessary no living out of faith needed, etc. And generally, they are very pompous, closed minded and arrogant. In my churches at least this was the case. We were taught to keep little “tickers” and given prizes for witnessing or for how many people we got to say the sinners prayer that week in school or if we had evangelized enough. The idea was to kind of shove religion at people rather than love them. I hated it. There are newer trends such as Faith ad Victory, Health and Wealth Gospels, Movements back to Reform Calvinism, and everyone thins they are right, yet no one agrees, not even on how to baptize a person, some denominations will even tell you your baptism was invalid if you were baptized as a child. I’ve seen it, I’ve been through it, and its not worth it. Hope this helps
 
Well I don’t have a lot of time to answer, so I may elaborate later, but I felt I should leave you a response:

I’m nominally a Unitarian Universalist, but I haven’t been to a UU service since Christmas, and two or three masses since then, so the Catholic Church has a one-up on me for attendance. I was born and raised in a UU church which gave me a very broad background for religious education, so I’m comfortable in a lot of religious environments.

Spirituality is a different story. In the UU tradition, there’s no real dogma of belief outside certain basic principles.(Found here) As a result, at least in the church I was raised, you can have a whole mix of “hyphen Unitarians”. The older churches out east are more likely to be “Christian-Unitarians”. The church I grew up in had many “Jewish-Unitarians”. Et cetera. There is an understood (but not always expressed) separation between belief and church. So I could believe with utter certainty that there is no God (hypothetically!) but still go to a UU church because the church itself is about people gathering together who share those principles whether under the aegis of faith, doctrine or humanism.

Now, as to Scripture, that’s another thing that varies widely. I personally was raised in the belief that Scripture is part historical chronicle (mostly Old Testament) and part teaching tool (mostly New Testament). From my view there’s nothing inherently holy about Scripture. However, due to the history of Christianity’s dominance in the West, it is part of my shared cultural background with everybody I know, and so is objectively “better” than many other teaching tools because it is so widely accepted.

Personally I’m rather fond of Catholicism for the ritual of it. I’ve been doing quite a bit of travelling lately, and though I don’t take eucharist or anything, it’s nice to be able to attend a church service that’s the same around the world.

Sorry I’m rambling a bit, but do feel free to ask any follow-up questions, hopefully I’ll make more sense on a specific topic.
 
rwillenborg,
Since your title included “all non-Catholics”, I suppose that you can at least get a brief glimpse into the Mormon religion–full name of which is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The newsroom section of the lds.org website is helpful for getting a glimpse of beliefs, as is the Wikipedia article on the LDS church.

My strong belief in the Bible and its literal meaning, and seeing life as a journey of faith and gaining spiritual knowledge just as life was a journey for Abraham who had great faith and gained great spiritual knowledge and great covenant promises, plus very personal and real guidance from the Holy Spirit and the feeling of being placed in circumstances that test faith and allow service to others and allow the growing opportunities spoken of by Christ and the apostles, are vital to my personal faith in the Lord, Jesus Christ as the loving, saving Redeemer of the world who brings peace to my soul and knowledge that He lives. The Book of Mormon has expanded my understanding of His redeeming mission and saving grace.

LDS believe in a baptism of faith received by immersion, the restoration of scattered Israel (all its tribes) as prophesied by many prophets in the Old Testament, the atonement of Christ as the corner stone of God’s plan of salvation for the human family, and that we are all spirit children brought into being spirits even before this life by a loving Heavenly Father who believes in us far more than we sometimes allow ourselves to believe in ourselves. LDS believe God speaks in our day to covenant believers through living prophets and apostles called by Him and not self-appointed by themselves or by other men or women.

Peace to all.
 
“All that is written in the Holy Scripture are true…but all truths could not be found in the Holy Scripture…hence the Dogma.”
 
Islam is about the overwhelming sense of God’s sovereignty (God as Absolute and One) that arises from our experience of existence as completely and totally a gift which we must return, completely and totally, back to God (i.e., a Muslim is one who submits [to God, obviously]). Since God is the One (Wahdat al-Wujud), life is nothing other than a process of one-ing (tawhid). This one-ing is lived out socially through the continuing formation of the Ummah (Community).

If you are just looking for an introduction to the history and basic teachings of Islam, then the Catholic scholar, John Esposito, from Georgetown, is top notch. But once you have done that, I would recommend Seyyed Hossein Nasr (something like The Essential Seyyed Hossein Nasr) as someone who is both a significant modern writer about Islam, and very readable.
 
We believe Raptor Jesus is the only true savior. When our lord rises again during The Velocirapture, heretics (which include [but not limited too] Jews, Christians, Muslims and atheists) and worshipers of TyrannoSatan shall be cast underfoot and disemboweled by his holy talons.

Remember - Raptor Jesus went extinct for your sins…
 
Velorider said:
We believe Raptor Jesus is the only true savior. When our lord rises again during The Velocirapture, heretics (which include [but not limited too] Jews, Christians, Muslims and atheists) and worshipers of TyrannoSatan shall be cast underfoot and disemboweled by his holy talons.

Remember - Raptor Jesus went extinct for your sins…
Click to expand...
Mr McGinty, can I bite you please?
Failing that could you change the batteries in my calculator?
 
rwillenborg said:
To make a long story short, I wasn’t really raised in any particular church setting, and so throughout my teens and 20s I would have labeled myself an atheist, probably an agnostic if I were in a better mood.
Then, in my early 30s, I turned 180 degrees and ran, not walked, to the Catholic Church and haven’t looked back since.
I have to be honest here, when I read Scripture, it screams Catholic to me. Same with when I read the early Church fathers.
So, what I’m asking you for is help seeing scripture, and the world at large through YOUR eyes.
I understand the eyes of an atheist. They were once my eyes. I understand the eyes of an agnostic, too. They were once my eyes. I have NO IDEA how a Methodist, or a Baptist, or a Presbyterian reads scripture. Though I know people of those denominations, I would not consider them terribly learned on Scripture itself. Likewise with non-Christian faiths, though I have friends who are Muslim and Hindu, their ability to articulate their faith isn’t terribly in depth.

So what I’m asking you for is help putting on YOUR lenses.
I don’t expect you’d be able to give a full fleshing out or defense of your faith in the space of an internet forum. But, maybe you could just list highlights? Maybe you could recommend some books? I’m not looking to read some angry and nasty diatribe against the Catholic faith, mind you, but what I AM looking for are reasoned and well thought out articles, essays, books explaining a particular faith, not shredding another one.

And please, I see that this thread could turn into something nasty, and that’s not what I’m looking for. I’m NOT looking for a greater understanding of why you’re NOT Catholic. I am looking for a greater understanding of why you ARE what you ARE. What drew you to that particular faith tradition? And what can you tell me, or what books can you recommend to me so that I could see your faith tradition through the same eyes you do?

Often times, I feel like other people, particularly non-Catholic Christians are THINKING the same thing I’m thinking, but since I speak Catholic-ese, and they speak Baptist-ese, that our words keep floating past eachother. (Not sure if that makes any sense)

Thank you for time.

respectfully,
rwillenborg
Click to expand...
Unlike you I was raised strict catholic 28 years but after being challenged by christian TV and reading the bible I did a 180 and became a bible christian. I saw relationship with Jesus not religion and ritual in scripture.
 
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