To ALL NON-CATHOLICS: help me understand your point of view

[FabiusMaximus]

I’m only 19, so I don’t have a long, elaborate, or complicated story.

My parents, before dating, were both devout Catholics (though before converting my mother was flirting with Jehovah’s Witnesses). Sometime during the 1970s in Italy, during the Charismatic Movement that swept the country, my mother attended a Pentecostal church with an aunt of hers. There she converted to Pentecostalism, specifically the Assemblee di Dio in Italia - Assemblies of God in Italy.

She met my father, who was an exceptionally devout Roman Catholic. He believed every single word of doctrine that flowed from Rome. He always teased my mother about her Protestant faith, and always nudged her to return to the Catholic faith.

My father’s parents hated my mother and her faith. Because Protestantism had just begun to grow again in Italy, there was a lot of tension between Catholics and the emerging Protestants (who are mostly Pentecostals). There was a lot of tension, and my parents were beginning to draw apart because of their differences in faith.

One day my father had to go to Sardinia for some reason. While he was there, he began to study the scriptures and to pray. Once he returned, he converted to Pentecostalism and abandoned the Catholic faith.

I essentially grew up in Pentecostalism. My father became ordained in the Assemblies of God, though he hasn’t really been able to preach much in the United States since we immigrated. I grew up in the church, so there is nothing special, I have no conversion story or anything. I just have good parents who brought me up in the Lord.

However, since just before Christmas, I began reading some Church History and have become disturbed with the discrepancies between the early Fathers and what modern Evangelicalism teaches. So that sent me on a journey to search out the Truth. And while I’m distancing from Evangelicalism, I won’t become a Catholic, because truthfully, I find that some of its beliefs also contradict the Fathers of the Church.

 

[SaulTucker]

We believe Raptor Jesus is the only true savior. When our lord rises again during The Velocirapture, heretics (which include [but not limited too] Jews, Christians, Muslims and atheists) and worshipers of TyrannoSatan shall be cast underfoot and disemboweled by his holy talons.

Remember - Raptor Jesus went extinct for your sins…

You are a very naughty boy who should have his bottom spanked.

 

[Lapin_Lascif]

I have to be honest here, when I read Scripture, it screams Catholic to me. Same with when I read the early Church fathers.

Rwillenborg, even though I am not a Catholic, I have to concur that when reading scripture it screams Catholic to me as well.

For clarity’s sake, I don’t think that any of the major tenets of Christianity are true, or mentally salubrious.

I could, however, be mistaken, and if that is the case I am in for a rather unpleasant surprise, after I shake off this mortal coil.
But, then again, I can convert (out of expedience) to your particular religion - Pascal’s wager, and all that jazz- but then I could find out that our friendly Muslim brothers and sisters were right all along and I’ll wind up being tortured by Allah’s minions.

It seems there aren’t any sure bets out there.
Of course, to make matters worse, one can’t turn a corner without being accosted by an agitated primate who (without a shred of evidence) proclaims that such and such deity is the Real Deal.

But I digress.

Let’s return to this matter of Scripture “screaming Catholicism”.

No doubt this is true, but then one wonders why Holy Mother Church had people murdered for the heinous crime of reading the Good Book in their own language, until very, very recently.

Let’s take a biblical passage that almost bellows Catholicism with every murderous phrase and sentence.

Deuteronomy 13: 7-11

“If your brother or your daughter, or the spouse whom you embrace, or your most intimate friend, tries to seduce you, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ unknow to you or your ancestors before you, gods of the people surrounding you, whether near to you or far away, anywhere throughout the world you must not listen to him; you must show no pity, you must not spare him No, you must kill him, your hand must stike the first blow in putting him to death and the hands of the rest of the people following. You must stone him to death, since he tried to divert you from Yahweh your God.”

Pretty straightforward stuff, isn’t it, Rwillenborg ?

I am sure you are not one of those lily-livered apologists who imagine that we can dispense with all this explicitly mandated slaughter as God, in His eternal wisdom and kindness, has just specifically instructed us in Deuteronomy 12:32: “Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it.”

In the light of these crystal clear celestial dictates, it is no surprise that the learned men of the Church, for many long and bloody centuries, have taken such an uncompromising stance against heretical rabble like me.

Why do I have the sneaking suspicion that shortly we shall hear the shuffling sounds of a No True Scotsman slouching towards the Catholic Answers Forum?

Lapin

 

[AmateurPianist]

Raised a United Methodist.

Became disinterested in Christianity throughout my teen years and got into the partying and stuff teenagers in my community were into.

Christian influences were my American Baptist piano teacher and a new Pentecostal/Charismatic church in town.

Came to Jesus in college after a period of reflecting on my life. I asked Jesus into my heart in a practice room in college praying with one other student.

At home associated myself with the new Pentecostal/Charismatic church because they had quite a few young people at that time and they seemed the most radical.

From then on everything else logically followed.

To be honest it is very difficult if not impossible to believe 'We are the one true church and we are superior to you" when at the same time I have seen and known God to work and move in the many ways I have seen Him in my lifetime.

 

[JonNC]

To make a long story short, I wasn’t really raised in any particular church setting, and so throughout my teens and 20s I would have labeled myself an atheist, probably an agnostic if I were in a better mood.
Then, in my early 30s, I turned 180 degrees and ran, not walked, to the Catholic Church and haven’t looked back since.
I have to be honest here, when I read Scripture, it screams Catholic to me. Same with when I read the early Church fathers.
So, what I’m asking you for is help seeing scripture, and the world at large through YOUR eyes.
I understand the eyes of an atheist. They were once my eyes. I understand the eyes of an agnostic, too. They were once my eyes. I have NO IDEA how a Methodist, or a Baptist, or a Presbyterian reads scripture. Though I know people of those denominations, I would not consider them terribly learned on Scripture itself. Likewise with non-Christian faiths, though I have friends who are Muslim and Hindu, their ability to articulate their faith isn’t terribly in depth.

So what I’m asking you for is help putting on YOUR lenses.
I don’t expect you’d be able to give a full fleshing out or defense of your faith in the space of an internet forum. But, maybe you could just list highlights? Maybe you could recommend some books? I’m not looking to read some angry and nasty diatribe against the Catholic faith, mind you, but what I AM looking for are reasoned and well thought out articles, essays, books explaining a particular faith, not shredding another one.

And please, I see that this thread could turn into something nasty, and that’s not what I’m looking for. I’m NOT looking for a greater understanding of why you’re NOT Catholic. I am looking for a greater understanding of why you ARE what you ARE. What drew you to that particular faith tradition? And what can you tell me, or what books can you recommend to me so that I could see your faith tradition through the same eyes you do?

Often times, I feel like other people, particularly non-Catholic Christians are THINKING the same thing I’m thinking, but since I speak Catholic-ese, and they speak Baptist-ese, that our words keep floating past eachother. (Not sure if that makes any sense)

Thank you for time.

respectfully,
rwillenborg

I offer to you a link to the Lutheran Confessions, known as the Book of Concord. I’d encourage you to start with the Augsburg Confession and the Small Catechism.

My experience is that in many ways, Lutherans speak a language similar to that of Catholics, though not completely so. As an example, given the choice between listening to a Christian (evangelical) radio station and EWTN, I’d much prefer EWTN.

bookofconcord.org/

May you be blessed in your journey.
Jon

 

[jericho777]

To be honest it is very difficult if not impossible to believe 'We are the one true church and we are superior to you" when at the same time I have seen and known God to work and move in the many ways I have seen Him in my lifetime.

A+ Some talk about church while others demonstrate the power of God in their lives and live as the church.

 

[SaulTucker]

We believe Raptor Jesus is the only true savior. When our lord rises again during The Velocirapture, heretics (which include [but not limited too] Jews, Christians, Muslims and atheists) and worshipers of TyrannoSatan shall be cast underfoot and disemboweled by his holy talons.

Remember - Raptor Jesus went extinct for your sins…

did you enjoy the spanking I gave you Steve?

 

[AmericanJosiah]

I have to be honest here, when I read Scripture, it screams Catholic to me. Same with when I read the early Church fathers.
So, what I’m asking you for is help seeing scripture, and the world at large through YOUR eyes.

I don’t expect you’d be able to give a full fleshing out or defense of your faith in the space of an internet forum. But, maybe you could just list highlights?

Thank you for time.

respectfully,
rwillenborg

When I read Scripture, I see MUCH that confirms the teachings of The Catholic Church, too. But then, the opposite would be equally true, too (works equally both ways). What I don’t see is:

1. The Catholic Church alone and exclusively is infallible, incapable of error, unaccountable and exempt from norming. While all OTHER teachers are the opposite.
2. The Christians are not people but rather a geopolitical/legal, structural institutional, intracongregational, physical entity - and IT just happens to specifically and particularly be The Catholic Church.
3. That it is dogmatic fact that the bread and wine undergo an alchemic transubstantiation leaving behind Aristotelian accidents. That it is a dogmatic fact that Mary was born immaculately. That it is a dogmatic fact of highest certainly and greatest importance that Our Lady never once had sex. That Mary was Assumed into heaven upon Her death (or was it her undeath?), that the Bishop of the Diocese in Rome is infallible. That we must accept whatever the singular, specific Catholic Church says “with docility” “as Jesus speaking.” Purgatory. I don’t read about this things in Scripture. I actually have little “issue” with these things as pious opinions or theories or speculations - even passionately held, but I don’t agree that they are dogmas. And I don’t think these things are confirmed by Scripture or in many cases, by even the “fathers” of The Catholic Church.
4. It is true that the snippets that The Catholic Church chooses from the Authors that The Catholic Church chooses as The Catholic Church interprets are interpreted so as to at least suggest as possible some of the unique and distrinctive doctrines of The Catholic Church. But I find that very unremarkable.

I agree with The Catholic Church probably 95% of the time, and I regard it as a valid and blessed denomination. I am very, very grateful for the time I was active there! But that 5% that defines what is The Catholic Church, that 5% that divides us, that 5% that is often unique to it itself alone - THAT is often what I find problematic. As I carefully read and studied The Catholic Catechism for those Catholic distinctives, I was profoundly impacted by the lack of confirmation - by Scripture and often even the RCC’s own Tradition as well.

Why I “left” the RCC falls primarily into the following reasons:

1. I disagree with its eccleology that the church Jesus founded is it itself. This emphasis on individualism and institutionalism (seemingly to “justify” the exemption of self alone from accountability) goes too far in my view and is not Scriptural. Christians are not an it. The church is not an IT, the church is US. The church, IMHO, is one and holy and catholic; the church is the communion of saints, the mystical union of believers. It is not The Catholic Church.
2. I disagree with the epistemology that the most sound way to determine correctness is for The Catholic Church to exempt The Catholic Church exclusively from accountability and norming, insisting instead that all just rather accept whatever it alone says “with docility” “as Jesus speaking.” My life experience and my study of the cults convinces ME this is not only entirely moot to the issue of correctness but can be a profoundly dangerous epistemology. This ULTIMATELY lead to my departure. I was honest to admit that I do not simply accept with docility WHATEVER I’m told - and thus cannot be Catholic (CCC 87, etc., etc.).
3. I think The Catholic Church simply goes too far and is much too quick to make unique dogmas, much too unwilling to embrace mystery and to “leave things” where Scripture and Tradition do. For example, I have no problems with the Assumption of Mary has a pious opinion, I do with it being dogma.
4. The focus on self, on institutionalism/denominationalism simply ran against my strong embrace of humility, community and accountability. The stress on the Theology of Glory conflicted with a strong sense of the Theology of the Cross.

.

 

[AmericanJosiah]

As an example, given the choice between listening to a Christian (evangelical) radio station and EWTN, I’d much prefer EWTN.

Haha! Me, too!

.

 

[Bill_Pick]

For anyone who may be interested in understanding Islam, the 40 hadiths of Imam Nawawi is a fairly short but comprehensive overview of virtually all of the major teachings of Islam.

If you have read and understood this very well-known collection of ahadith, then your understanding of Islam would likely be as good or perhaps would be even better than that of most of the world’s Muslims.

Thia is what I undersatans about Islam I’m tired of being told that Islam is a “Religion of Peace,” when every day I can read dozens of stories of Muslim men killing their sisters, wives and daughters for their family “honor”; of Muslims rioting over some slight offense; of Muslims murdering Christian and Jews because they aren’t “believers”; of Muslims burning schools for girls; of Muslims stoning teenage rape victims to death for “adultery”; of Muslims mutilating the genitals of little girls; all in the name of Allah, because the Qur’an and Shari’a law tells them to. This is just my opinion and you did ask what I understand about Islam

 

[Bill_Pick]

I’m tired of being told that Islam is a “Religion of Peace,” when every day I can read dozens of stories of Muslim men killing their sisters, wives and daughters for their family “honor”; of Muslims rioting over some slight offense; of Muslims murdering Christian and Jews because they aren’t “believers”; of Muslims burning schools for girls; of Muslims stoning teenage rape victims to death for “adultery”; of Muslims mutilating the genitals of little girls; all in the name of Allah, because the Qur’an and Shari’a law tells them to. Thia is just my opinion

 

[raggetyann]

I too was raised with no religion or even discussion of such.

In my case, I see differently than ALL of the others because I have a “loop of perfection” (as in a jeweler’s loop) that enables me to see the tiniest imperfection in anything. Due to that lens, I can sort Truth and read Scriptures in an entirely different way than just about anyone. Thus seeing the accuracy and inaccuracy forbids me from fully jumping into groups that are led by misunderstandings or promote misunderstandings even by accident, yet I cannot deny the issues in which they are correct, regardless of who they represent. And much to my eternal dismay, that even applies to what I see in myself.

I see Truth on many levels at once and from different perspectives at once. In a sense, I am in ALL churches and groups yet not entirely within any fore I see error (sin) in all efforts of Man. I can be neither fully for nor fully against any of them.

For you to see through my eyes and jeweler’s loop, would be for you to become me and to also be of no other.

Dear James, I to am like you, i see that there are no churches that have the real truth they all have issues and none are righteous no not one! Most of the time i want to get off the Internet and not get caught up into what’s going to happen, then i thin of the Lord God saying, be either hot or cold but if you are lukewarm i will spu you out of my mouth. I love the Lord and believe in the trinity etc. i pray every day and allot most of the day even when people are talking t me i am talking to God about what they are saying etc. I am a sinner saved by grace but i do believe you can loose your salvation s i stay to myself. i try to get with people but the more i am with people the more i like my cats. raggetyann

 

[raggetyann]

I’m tired of being told that Islam is a “Religion of Peace,” when every day I can read dozens of stories of Muslim men killing their sisters, wives and daughters for their family “honor”; of Muslims rioting over some slight offense; of Muslims murdering Christian and Jews because they aren’t “believers”; of Muslims burning schools for girls; of Muslims stoning teenage rape victims to death for “adultery”; of Muslims mutilating the genitals of little girls; all in the name of Allah, because the Qur’an and Shari’a law tells them to. Thia is just my opinion

But all churches have these problems. This country did allot to the minority groups here before they won their rights with death and blood shed. I was at a group here and they practically told me to leave because i didn’t have the right credentials now i will stay a no church person because these people were all catholic and no it alls. raggetyann. They will probably get me suspended or banned from here because i told them truth about themselves. They were cold and bitter and they professed to be of PHD and told me to go to a group for Post dramatic stress syndrome, that was very nervy. I would never tall a new person to do that or diagnose someone that don’t even know. I was there to help and they told me i was a lurker and 5 other also, tey went to our profiles and determined this and don’t even know what i have taken up or what i did for work etc. That is crazy!

 

[Bill_Pick]

But all churches have these problems. This country did allot to the minority groups here before they won their rights with death and blood shed. I was at a group here and they practically told me to leave because i didn’t have the right credentials now i will stay a no church person because these people were all catholic and no it alls. raggetyann. They will probably get me suspended or banned from here because i told them truth about themselves. They were cold and bitter and they professed to be of PHD and told me to go to a group for Post dramatic stress syndrome, that was very nervy. I would never tall a new person to do that or diagnose someone that don’t even know. I was there to help and they told me i was a lurker and 5 other also, tey went to our profiles and determined this and don’t even know what i have taken up or what i did for work etc. That is crazy!

Please tell what Church you got banned from and the Church got suspended,City,Name ect