to all Traditional Catholics

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I’ll insert one last quote…

"It seems to me that we have two fundamental rules of which you spoke. The first was given to us by St Paul in his First Letter to the Thessalonians: do not extinguish charisms. If the Lord gives us new gifts we must be grateful, even if at times they may be inconvenient. And it is beautiful that without an initiative of the hierarchy but with an initiative from below, as people say, but which also truly comes from on High, that is, as a gift of the Holy Spirit, new forms of life are being born in the Church just as, moreover, they were born down the ages.

At first, they were always inconvenient. Even St Francis was very inconvenient, and it was very hard for the Pope to give a final canonical form to a reality that by far exceeded legal norms. For St Francis, it was a very great sacrifice to let himself be lodged in this juridical framework, but in the end this gave rise to a reality that is still alive today and will live on in the future: it gives strength, as well as new elements, to the Church’s life.

I wish to say only this: Movements have been born in all the centuries. Even St Benedict at the outset was a Movement. They do not become part of the Church’s life without suffering and difficulty. St Benedict himself had to correct the initial direction that monasticism was taking. Thus, in our century too, the Lord, the Holy Spirit, has given us new initiatives with new aspects of Christian life. Since they are lived by human people with their limitations, they also create difficulties. So the first rule is: do not extinguish Christian charisms; be grateful even if they are inconvenient.

The second rule is: the Church is one; if Movements are truly gifts of the Holy Spirit, they belong to and serve the Church and in patient dialogue between Pastors and Movements, a fruitful form is born where these elements become edifying for the Church today and in the future.

This dialogue is at all levels. Starting with the parish priest, the Bishops and the Successor of Peter, the search for appropriate structures is underway: in many cases it has already borne fruit. In others, we are still studying.

For example, we ask ourselves whether, after five years of experience, it is possible to confirm definitively the Statutes for the Neocatechumenal Way, whether a trial period is necessary or whether, perhaps, certain elements of this structure need perfecting.

In any case, I knew the Neocatechumens from the very outset. It was a long Way, with many complications that still exist today, but we have found an ecclesial form that has already vastly improved the relationship between the Pastor and the Way. We are going ahead like this! The same can be said for other Movements." excerpt from Benedict XVI’s Feb. 22, 2007 session of questions-and-answers with Roman clergy
 
FK04US said:
So you guys know more than the Pope and the Roman curia? Are you guys the Lutherans of the 21st century? hahaha … No offense, but if I had to choose whom to believe in the Catholic Church, I know that the Holy Father goes first in the list, by far. And I would think that Traditional Catholics would be loyal to the Pope!

Peace.
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Your ignorance is stunning.

If you were living in the 12th Century, and the Second Lateran Council issued a Canon calling for all Jews to wear public identification, would you go along with it? Would you suggest that anyone who disagreed with it is nothing but a heretic because everyone knows the Vatican can’t make mistakes?

I suppose in your conception of the Church, Catholics aren’t permitted to have minds of their own.
 
Does the Catechism of the Catholic Church teach this: denial of the priesthood and the Holy Sacrifice. We shouldn’t wonder why the focus is turning horizontal to the “community”.

An “intervention” made by the founder of the Neocatechumenal Way —Kiko Arguello-- in Malta:

mixjaneokatekumenali.net/statuti2.htm

Intervent ta’ Kiko

For three centuries, the primitive Church had a serious catechumenate, in which before receiving baptism the catechumens had to show that they had faith, that they had eternal life inside them because they did works of life, works which showed that the risen Christ lived in them, that they had received the grace of divine nature, through the Holy Spirit.

Here we can see that baptism was the gestation to a new creation, where the synthesis of the announcement of the kerygma, the Good News, the change of moral life and the liturgy were one single thing.

These Christians were inserted in living communities.** Thy had no temples, they had no altars, they had no priests like the pagans, they met in houses, but God himself placed these communities on the lamp-stand,** and through persecution, they were able to show the signs of the new man who proclaims the Sermon of the Mount: “Do not resist evil, if someone strikes you on the right cheek, offer him the left, if someone takes you to court to steal your tunic, give him your cloak as well, if someone steals what is yours, do not ask for it back, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you.”
 
Dauphin said:
Your ignorance is stunning.

If you were living in the 12th Century, and the Second Lateran Council issued a Canon calling for all Jews to wear public identification, would you go along with it? Would you suggest that anyone who disagreed with it is nothing but a heretic because everyone knows the Vatican can’t make mistakes?

I suppose in your conception of the Church, Catholics aren’t permitted to have minds of their own.
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Your arrogance is stunning!

We are free to think whatever we want, but we owe obedience to the Holy See. Feel free to create your own Protestant church if you do not agree with the Catholic Church. You can be your own Pope. Your Holiness Dauphin I of the Divine Dauphiness Church, maybe?

As I said, I, as millions of faithful Catholics, prefer to obey to The Holy Father rather than to the arrogance of some dissent Catholics.
 
FK04US said:
Your arrogance is stunning!

We are free to think whatever we want, but we owe obedience to the Holy See. Feel free to create your own Protestant church if you do not agree with the Catholic Church. You can be your own Pope. Your Holiness Dauphin I of the Divine Dauphiness Church, maybe?

As I said, I, as millions of faithful Catholics, prefer to obey to The Holy Father rather than to the arrogance of some dissent Catholics.
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You’re attacking a straw man.

What do you mean by obedience? Does the Holy Father require something of me? Does Canon Law say that all Catholics are bound to agree with every disciplinary decision the Church makes? If so, show me where.

We’re bound to the Catholic doctrine as defined by the Church’s Magisterium and to any requirements placed on us by Canon Law.

We’re not bound, however, to agree with absolutely everything the Church does. That’s an absurd form of tyranny; you should be ashamed for proposing it.
 
Walking_Home said:
Does the Catechism of the Catholic Church teach this: denial of the priesthood and the Holy Sacrifice. We shouldn’t wonder why the focus is turning horizontal to the “community”.

An “intervention” made by Kiko Arguello in Malta:

mixjaneokatekumenali.net/statuti2.htm

Intervent ta’ Kiko

For three centuries, the primitive Church had a serious catechumenate, in which before receiving baptism the catechumens had to show that they had faith, that they had eternal life inside them because they did works of life, works which showed that the risen Christ lived in them, that they had received the grace of divine nature, through the Holy Spirit.

Here we can see that baptism was the gestation to a new creation, where the synthesis of the announcement of the kerygma, the Good News, the change of moral life and the liturgy were one single thing.

These Christians were inserted in living communities.** Thy had no temples, they had no altars**, they had no priests like the pagans, they met in houses, but God himself placed these communities on the lamp-stand, and through persecution, they were able to show the signs of the new man who proclaims the Sermon of the Mount: “Do not resist evil, if someone strikes you on the right cheek, offer him the left, if someone takes you to court to steal your tunic, give him your cloak as well, if someone steals what is yours, do not ask for it back, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you.”
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What is false in this? It is true that the early Christian communities lived like this. You emphasize the wrong parts. No where in that excerpt does Arguello insist that altars or priests should be abolished. He is just stating the history of the early Christian communitites.

"These Christians were inserted in living communities.Thy had no temples, they had no altars, they had no priests like the pagans, they met in houses, but God himself placed these communities on the lamp-stand,and through persecution, they were able to show the signs of the new man who proclaims the Sermon of the Mount: **“Do not resist evil, if someone strikes you on the right cheek, offer him the left, if someone takes you to court to steal your tunic, give him your cloak as well, if someone steals what is yours, do not ask for it back, love your enemies, do good to those who hate **”

THAT’S THE IMPORTANT PART.
 
Dauphin said:
You’re attacking a straw man.

What do you mean by obedience? Does the Holy Father require something of me? Does Canon Law say that all Catholics are bound to agree with every disciplinary decision the Church makes? If so, show me where.

We’re bound to the Catholic doctrine as defined by the Church’s Magisterium and to any requirements placed on us by Canon Law.

We’re not bound, however, to agree with absolutely everything the Church does. That’s an absurd form of tyranny; you should be ashamed for proposing it.
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And who are you to judge what is heresy and what is not. As you say, you are a straw man, it is not of your business to judge and almost condemn other Catholics that are in communion with the Catholic Church.

You may have your own opinion, but when it goes against a group of brothers that Our Church recognize as valid, you are to keep your dissent opinions to yourself. Or you can creat your own church.
 
mattm09 said:
What is false in this? It is true that the early Christian communities lived like this. You emphasize the wrong parts. No where in that excerpt does Arguello insist that altars or priests should be abolished. He is just stating the history of the early Christian communitites.

"These Christians were inserted in living communities.Thy had no temples, they had no altars, they had no priests like the pagans, they met in houses, but God himself placed these communities on the lamp-stand,and through persecution, they were able to show the signs of the new man who proclaims the Sermon of the Mount: **“Do not resist evil, if someone strikes you on the right cheek, offer him the left, if someone takes you to court to steal your tunic, give him your cloak as well, if someone steals what is yours, do not ask for it back, love your enemies, do good to those who hate **”

THAT’S THE IMPORTANT PART.
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The Important part —is his denial of the Holy Sacrifice and the ordained priesthood. That is far from being Catholic.
 
mattm09 said:
What is false in this? It is true that the early Christian communities lived like this.
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And there you have it; pure heresy. Don’t be deceived as this person sadly has; stay away from this heretical movement.

This is directly contrary to the Catholic teaching. The Catholic Church teaches dogmatically that Christ himself instituted the priesthood, that He himself is the High Priest, and that the Last Supper was the first Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Here are the Canons of the Council of Trent concerning the Sacrifice of the Mass:

http://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct22.html

See for yourself if they can be reconciled with Kiko’s doctrine.
 
mattm09 said:
As important and beautiful as tradition is, I feel as though they have forgotten the reality of the love of Jesus Christ and have traded it for natural religiosity. I have been deeply offended by hostile attitudes taken on this forum, especially against the Catholics that worship according to the current Missal and not the Extraordinary Form.
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This is simply an unfair generalization. You are looking at posts and trying to read hearts. As to these forums, they are for communication, not evangelization. Surely both evangelization and catechisis can occur here, but the forum itself is a sort of neutral media.

On the other hand, the responses to you, the name-calling and personal attacks, lend credence to your claim of hostility.
 
FK04US said:
And who are you to judge what is heresy and what is not. As you say, you are a straw man, it is not of your business to judge and almost condemn other Catholics that are in communion with the Catholic Church.

You may have your own opinion, but when it goes against a group of brothers that Our Church recognize as valid, you are to keep your dissent opinions to yourself. Or you can creat your own church.
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You’re not understanding at all what I’m saying.

When I say “straw man” I mean that you’re attacking someone who doesn’t exist. You’re attacking a position which I haven’t taken!

Where have I said that I get to judge what heresy is?

Heresy is the denial of Catholic doctrine. This isn’t about doctrine, but discipline - a decision the Church has made. Absolutely nowhere does the Church say that a Catholic isn’t free to disagree with its disciplinary decisions.
 
Walking_Home said:
Does the Catechism of the Catholic Church teach this: denial of the priesthood and the Holy Sacrifice. We shouldn’t wonder why the focus is turning horizontal to the “community”.

An “intervention” made by the founder of the Neocatechumenal Way —Kiko Arguello-- in Malta:

mixjaneokatekumenali.net/statuti2.htm
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In case the page is deleted, I confirm that this link currently exists and contains the words posted here.

(There you go, Walking_Home 👍 )
 
Dauphin said:
You’re attacking a straw man.

What do you mean by obedience? Does the Holy Father require something of me? Does Canon Law say that all Catholics are bound to agree with every disciplinary decision the Church makes? If so, show me where.

We’re bound to the Catholic doctrine as defined by the Church’s Magisterium and to any requirements placed on us by Canon Law.

We’re not bound, however, to agree with absolutely everything the Church does. That’s an absurd form of tyranny; you should be ashamed for proposing it.
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Well if you aren’t in obedience to the Pope you are pretty much a Protestant…

If you don’t agree with the Church, you don’t agree with the truth, and the “truth is ultimately Jesus Christ.” (That quote was said by Benedict XVI, heard firsthand at the youth rally at St. Joseph Seminary in Yonkers!)
Walking_Home said:
The Important part —is his denial of the Holy Sacrifice and the ordained priesthood. That is far from being Catholic.
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The Holy Sacrifice isn’t mentioned in that passage. Neither is he denying the validity of the priesthood. This is just a hasty generalization.
 
mattm09 said:
Well if you aren’t in obedience to the Pope you are pretty much a Protestant…

If you don’t agree with the Church, you don’t agree with the truth, and the “truth is ultimately Jesus Christ.” (That quote was said by Benedict XVI, heard firsthand at the youth rally at St. Joseph Seminary in Yonkers!)
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This is absurd. I want you to carefully read what I’m about to write, because I’m starting to feel as if I’m talking to a brick wall.

You’re talking about Catholic doctrine. Obviously, no Catholic is free to reject Catholic doctrine. Everything the Church proposes for belief must be accepted by all baptised persons under pain of sin. Every heretic or schismatic goes to hell, as per perennial Catholic teaching.

I’m talking about discipline - decisions of a non-doctrinal nature which the Catholic hierarchy has made, including indults offered for certain activities. A Catholic is free to agree or disagree with these decisions.

Do you understand?
 
The result of Arguello’s “ideology” — the loss of the sacrificial nature of the Mass.

As per Kiko Arguello --""These Christians were inserted in living communities.Thy had no temples, they had no altars, they had no priests like the pagans, they met in houses, but God himself placed these communities on the lamp-stand "

vatican.va/roman_curia/synod/documents/rc_synod_doc_20050707_instrlabor-xi-assembly_en.html

SYNOD OF BISHOPS

XI ORDINARY GENERAL ASSEMBLY

THE EUCHARIST:
SOURCE AND SUMMIT
OF THE LIFE AND MISSION
OF THE CHURCH

INSTRUMENTUM LABORIS

For example, in those countries enjoying a general climate of peace and prosperity—primarily western countries—many perceive the Eucharistic mystery as simply the fulfilment of a Sunday obligation and a meal of fellowship.

Catechesis is faced with the **difficulty of preserving the sacrificial aspect of the Eucharist **as well as the idea of the Eucharist as a meal. Oftentimes, the latter receives more emphasis than the former.
 
Dauphin said:
You’re not understanding at all what I’m saying.

When I say “straw man” I mean that you’re attacking someone who doesn’t exist. You’re attacking a position which I haven’t taken!

Where have I said that I get to judge what heresy is?

Heresy is the denial of Catholic doctrine. This isn’t about doctrine, but discipline - a decision the Church has made. Absolutely nowhere does the Church say that a Catholic isn’t free to disagree with its disciplinary decisions.
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You may not be saying that you get to judge what heresy is, but you have been saying in this thread that our brothers in the NW are heretic or have heretical practices/doctrine. Hence, you are actually judging what a heresy is or not.

And what I am saying is that neither you or I have the authority to do that. That’s the Holy See’s job. And for me, as a faithful Catholic, if The Pope says that it is OK, then it is OK. I may not like it, I may not completely understand it, but I know that the Church know better than me. We believe that Our Pope and Our Church are guided by the Holy Spirit, and we know that they make tons of research before approving a new movement or practices. Then, who are you to condemn our brothers and tell them they are pure heresy! That pride, judgmental nature, and I know better attitude is the same that I find in the Cafeteria Catholics and protestants.
 
mattm09 said:
Well if you aren’t in obedience to the Pope you are pretty much a Protestant…

If you don’t agree with the Church, you don’t agree with the truth, and the “truth is ultimately Jesus Christ.” (That quote was said by Benedict XVI, heard firsthand at the youth rally at St. Joseph Seminary in Yonkers!)

The Holy Sacrifice isn’t mentioned in that passage. Neither is he denying the validity of the priesthood. This is just a hasty generalization.
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No ordained priesthood.
 
mattm09 said:
On this forum I am more of a spectator than someone who participates, and over the time I’ve been viewing this forum and my judgments against Traditional Catholics and people in general on this forum have amassed. As important and beautiful as tradition is, I feel as though they have forgotten the reality of the love of Jesus Christ and have traded it for natural religiosity. I have been deeply offended by hostile attitudes taken on this forum, especially against the Catholics that worship according to the current Missal and not the Extraordinary Form. I ask this: are these forums really evangelizing with Christ as the light at the end of the tunnel? Or is it merely hot air vents for disgruntled Traditional Catholics? I must ask for the forgiveness of everyone on this forum now. I may have not spoken or acted much, but in my mind the judgments against all here are too much and putting me in deep sin.

“We are not Christians for what we do, we are Christians for what we have received” -Benedict XVI
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I guess you made your point
 
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