To Anglicans/Episcopalians

[GKC]

Moreso than the nearest Latin Rite Roman parish as well, I should think…

I think so. Our parish music director also plays at the nearest Roman Rite church, and I get the impression we’re a cut higher, litugically. But if you traveled a couple of miles across town, to a little former evangelical building, one time RC parish of the Anglican Use, formed by disaffected Episcopalians (like my Continuing parish) you’d find the local indult TLM. I’ve attended. As good as it gets around here, ad populum, of course.

GKC

 

[RevDrNorth]

You’ve hit the nail on the head and driven it in with one strike of the hammer.

I was at the Moehler Institute in Paderborn recently. They are a Vatican thinktank on ecumenics. They’re at the cutting edge of Roman Catholic relations with other Christian bodies (they operate under the direct supervision of the Vatican). One of the profs and I discussed the various Anglican practices regarding handling unconsumed Eucharistic Species after consecration at Mass. For the record, the lowest of the low Anglicans will chuck them in the bin; alternatively, the highest of the high will reserve them, even occasionally placing them in the lunette of a monstrance for adoration at Solemn Benediction. You doubtless detect my affinity.

The prof, a peritus in Anglican theology, said that’s why it’s so difficult for Rome to have dialog with Anglicans. We have no official doctrines on anything. The Articles of Religion are rubbish, deserving to be burned. But we have nothing else.

It’s rather an unenviable place to be if you believe truth is definable and articulable. If you believe experience is everything you aren’t bothered I guess.

Anglicanism really is a religion whose essence is the principle of compromise, ie saying nothing with conviction.

There is some truth in what you say. I see it less as “wishy washy” than rock solid conviction in intellectualism. In other words, just as you could get a group of good academics sitting around arguing for and against each point without adherence or relevance to truth BUT with allegiance to relativism…so goes the Anglican Church in many quarters. The problem is that this perspective is not “wishy washy” it has been taken by some in a very strong almost arrogant stand. It is almost less spiritual and more academic/philosphically oriented with typical suspician of anything too far from center (as with academia and politics).

Archbishop Williams (an academic) as I understand it has liberal sympathies but is trying to hold the communion together as it is pulled by people liek Akinola from the South.

I suppose to a much lesser extent you ge these struggles in the US Catholic Church. If I recall Mother went toe to toe with a liberal Catholic Bishop in the US (he complained to the Vatican about her) and she won. Love the tough old nun

The Episcopal Church has not yet been kicked out of the communion but I have no doubt they will be demoted to associate status. I think they know it and are seeking to develop a more US based identity and connect with other like minded denominations. From their point of view I think they see themselves as fulfilling the Gospel mission and having to wrestle with backward thinking, anti intellectual forces that do not grasp the true nature of the Gospel and message of Christ.

North

 

[QuicumqueVult]

If I recall Mother went toe to toe with a liberal Catholic Bishop in the US (he complained to the Vatican about her) and she won. Love the tough old nun
North

To whom do you refer as ‘Mother’?

 

[RevDrNorth]

To whom do you refer as ‘Mother’?

Sorry…Mother Angelica. What a business woman, nun and re energizing force for orthodox Catholicsm. Her life is yielding such fruit. It is interesting to see how many youth are attracted to religious life in the orders that EWTN is affiliated with. There is something to be said for knowing what you believe and why.

In fact, EWTN is the most watched cable channel on my TV set.

Now…off to watch the movie Karol (about PJII). Just rented it.

North

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Ah the Articles of Religion. Today is the ‘feast’ of John Calvin in the Church of England calendar. (I failed to mention him at Evening Prayer earlier, preferring instead to honour St Augustine of Canterbury and St Philip Neri, founder of the Oratorians). We have frere Cauvin to thank for the often heretical Articles.

Calvin was a Godsend - but for him, the Reformation might not have been permanent; but perhaps it needed to be, to be an reproach to Rome. (Which is not a reflection on St.Philip BTW - people who have benefited the Church in such different ways are very hard to compare). What I can’t understand is the distaste for the Reformers among Protestants .​

I’ve never understood how the claim ‘Rome hath erred’ necessitates breaking Communion with her. Seems a bit of an over-reaction really. By the same bloody-minded logic I could rightly divorce my wife because she hath unintentionally but nevertheless erroneously believed a false doctrine (say, from an Articles-compliant Anglican perspective, she believes in the objective Real Presence of Christ the Eucharistic Species). But then, Anglicanism was founded on the principle that divorce is a matter of private judgement.

And everyone can also see how early Anglicanism was, originally at least, receptionist in its Eucharistic theology. (And since Anglicans in Holy Orders take vows to defend them, one wonders if one perjures oneself if one believes in the real presence.) No objective presence. We receive the Body and Blood only by our faith. Gosh! Aren’t we important! Our disposition regarding faith renders Christ either absent or present in the bread and wine. Talk about a New Age human potential movement. Anglicanism is its prototype!

1. Yes, the elect** are** important, for God, not they, has made them His. They alone receive the benefits of the Passion of Christ in the Sacrament, that He alone may be glorified. The “objection from importance”, if valid (which it’s not) would undermine the Atonement itself; people often say that that the Atonement is wishful thinking or worse, precisely because (so their objection goes) the earth is a completely unimportant speck of dust.​

1. Why is a Jewish girl important ? Only because God vouchsafed to be her Son. Or the Jewish people ? Again, God is the full & sufficient reason. So with the elect - He loves them, not for any (imaginary) excellence they have of themselves, but purely because of His sovereign grace, whereby He has chosen them for the glory of His Son, while not choosing others. To put the reason for the election of the elect in them, & not rather in the God Who alone elects them for His Glory, is madness, because in themselves there is nothing to distinguish them from the non-elect. So election is purely gratuitous, & not at all on the basis of the (wholly illusory) excellences of the elect; for they become good as a result of election by the Only Good God. Of themselves they are but sin, dust & vanity. So boasting is wholly excluded, & godly obedience is required, that they may walk in the good works which their Father has prepared for them to do.

How does* that* serve human pride ? It is a rebuke to it; it destroys it. So much for comparing receptionism to New Age ideas !

1. I can’t see how Anglicanism will ever re-unite with Rome - the Papal fullness of power as dogmatised in 1870 is a problem. As is the defining of doctrines which have not the shadow of a foundation in the Bible, such as the Immaculate Conception & the Assumption.

 

[GKC]

Ah the Articles of Religion. Today is the ‘feast’ of John Calvin in the Church of England calendar. (I failed to mention him at Evening Prayer earlier, preferring instead to honour St Augustine of Canterbury and St Philip Neri, founder of the Oratorians). We have frere Cauvin to thank for the often heretical Articles.

I’ve never understood how the claim ‘Rome hath erred’ necessitates breaking Communion with her. Seems a bit of an over-reaction really. By the same bloody-minded logic I could rightly divorce my wife because she hath unintentionally but nevertheless erroneously believed a false doctrine (say, from an Articles-compliant Anglican perspective, she believes in the objective Real Presence of Christ the Eucharistic Species). But then, Anglicanism was founded on the principle that divorce is a matter of private judgement.

And everyone can also see how early Anglicanism was, originally at least, receptionist in its Eucharistic theology. (And since Anglicans in Holy Orders take vows to defend them, one wonders if one perjures oneself if one believes in the real presence.) No objective presence. We receive the Body and Blood only by our faith. Gosh! Aren’t we important! Our disposition regarding faith renders Christ either absent or present in the bread and wine. Talk about a New Age human potential movement. Anglicanism is its prototype!

I must have missed this.

Anglicanism was founded on the principle that if politics was to triumph over the sacramental issues involved in a given decree of nullity (and it happened frequently, the sytem being designed to accomodate both real politick and the sacramental nature of marriage), then in Henry’s case he would make the ultimate political solution to his delimma. And he did.

And I’m not sure you can find Anglican clergy, outside the CoE, who take vows to defend the Articles, but I’m willing to learn.

GKC

 

[ronnok20]

I don’t really know if it’s possible for both to be in communion together again. The primacy of the pope is would be a huge stumbling block as well it should be. For Catholics, there is a big problem with the Eucharist which I believe both churches possess. CATHOLICS I know believe that they are they only ones beside the ORTHODOX that can consecrate but I don’t believe that. It would be wonderful if one day they would come together again, but I just don’t believe they will. I believe that the Anglicans are much more initiating in coming together than Catholics are at this point.

 

[jay29]

I don’t really know if it’s possible for both to be in communion together again. The primacy of the pope is would be a huge stumbling block as well it should be. For Catholics, there is a big problem with the Eucharist which I believe both churches possess. CATHOLICS I know believe that they are they only ones beside the ORTHODOX that can consecrate but I don’t believe that. It would be wonderful if one day they would come together again, but I just don’t believe they will. I believe that the Anglicans are much more initiating in coming together than Catholics are at this point.

The anglicans would have to drop some of their nonsense that has splintered the church in the USA.

 

[ronnok20]

The anglicans would have to drop some of their nonsense that has splintered the church in the USA.

I agree about the nonsense in which you are referring to, but you would also have to throw in the child sexual abuse scandal as a good deal of the nonsense as well. I know several Episcopalians who were Catholics and left the church for this reason and I will have to admit that if my pastor whom I have entrusted with my deepest confessions ever did this, I would have to leave as well. I do not agree with same sex blessings and the such, but I believe that it is far worse for children to be molested by a priest. Much would certainly have to be done to repair the break.

 

[jay29]

I agree about the nonsense in which you are referring to, but you would also have to throw in the child sexual abuse scandal as a good deal of the nonsense as well. I know several Episcopalians who were Catholics and left the church for this reason and I will have to admit that if my pastor whom I have entrusted with my deepest confessions ever did this, I would have to leave as well. I do not agree with same sex blessings and the such, but I believe that it is far worse for children to be molested by a priest. Much would certainly have to be done to repair the break.

If these people left the cc based on that scandal I would have to question their entire FAITH. Sex abuse is going on in every single faith group out there. Here is just a couple of sites to ponder:

stopbaptistpredators.org
reformation.com

to say it is just a catholic problem is a big joke. A huge FARCE.

**Commiting personal sins are one thing. Leading otherwise normal people to commit sin through false teachings and false gospels is a sure way to end up in hell. **I believe the Gospels mention this somewhere.

The sex scandal that is attacking the church is satanic in origin. Jesus warned about attacks against His Church. From within and without. It does not come as a surprise to me.

When that certain pope said, “The smoke of Satan has entered the sanctuary.” I believe it, but the Gates of Hell will never prevail.

 

[ronnok20]

If these people left the cc based on that scandal I would have to question their entire FAITH. Sex abuse is going on in every single faith group out there. Here is just a couple of sites to ponder:

stopbaptistpredators.org
reformation.com

to say it is just a catholic problem is a big joke. A huge FARCE.

**Commiting personal sins are one thing. Leading otherwise normal people to commit sin through false teachings and false gospels is a sure way to end up in hell. **I believe the Gospels mention this somewhere.

The sex scandal that is attacking the church is satanic in origin. Jesus warned about attacks against His Church. From within and without. It does not come as a surprise to me.

When that certain pope said, “The smoke of Satan has entered the sanctuary.” I believe it, but the Gates of Hell will never prevail.

Oh come on… The sex scandal is Satan attacking the church? So these instances of child sex abuses never happened?

 

[jay29]

Oh come on… The sex scandal is Satan attacking the church?

Sure is. These attacks against children did not originate with God, did they? These are attacks by satan against the Lord’s church. Look how much damage they have caused to the victims as well as the church…the work of pure evil.

So these instances of child sex abuses never happened?

Where do you come up with this? You must think satan and his demonic forces are make believe and really have no bearing on any events in our world. :tsktsk:

 

[Publisher]

A good documentary just released is “Deliver Us From Evil”…chilling…sad…heart breaking…I rented it from Blockbuster…there were 10 copies on hand and all but one rented.

 

[ronnok20]

Where do you come up with this? You must think satan and his demonic forces are make believe and really have no bearing on any events in our world. :tsktsk:

I fully agree that Satan is behind it but you seem to treat the church as the victim instead of the children who were attacked. It was those who are in the person of Christ (according to church teaching) that did this. Put the responsibility where it rightfully belongs, upon the Catholic church.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

I actually don’t think I would want the Anglican Churches to come into full communion with the RCC. I’d much rather the RCC set aside the primacy of the Papacy, among other things, and come into full communion with us.

How can we enter full communion with you when it was you who left us?

 

[jay29]

I fully agree that Satan is behind it but you seem to treat the church as the victim instead of the children who were attacked. It was those who are in the person of Christ (according to church teaching) that did this. Put the responsibility where it rightfully belongs, upon the Catholic church.

Who prompted the lustful, outrageous, criminal, and disgusting behaviour of the pedophile priests? Who was behind there attacks on the kids, working in the background and shadows? Satan was.

The church TOLD them to molest boys and rape them? No way.

 

[rr1213]

How can we enter full communion with you when it was you who left us?

Actually a question of perspective…

 

[jay29]

Actually a question of perspective…

relativism is a joke

 

[RWMorris]

My husband and I left the Episcopal Church because of the consecration of the gay bishop. We began attending RCIA classes for the simple reason that we enjoy the liturgy and there was no other place to go but Rome. However, once we began studying we realized we should have been Catholic all along! It is the One, True, Apostolic Church that Jesus founded on the Rock of Peter. Once we saw the light, everything was so clear.
I pray for our many friends we left in Anglicanism who are so confused over what to do. We pray that they may be led as we were led to the one true church.

 

[ronnok20]

Who prompted the lustful, outrageous, criminal, and disgusting behaviour of the pedophile priests? Who was behind there attacks on the kids, working in the background and shadows? Satan was.

The church TOLD them to molest boys and rape them? No way.

The RC is absolutely responsible especially for the fact that they knew of many child sex abuse cases but continued to ignore the problem by moving priests from one parish to another to another. It is a documented fact used in court cases. My parents recently watched a movie about a priest who is a pedophile and was moved around many times and is now in Ireland. Any organization who would tolerate and soft pedal something of this magnitude for as long as it has should be questioned on all levels including the faith. Satan works in many evil things, but just saying that, “the devil made me do it” isn’t going to work.