To be born again is what exactly?

[Texan77]

You still ignore everything that Jesus said. You take one word “water” and develop and whole imaginary text on it. Why do you use the word birth in what you wrote, I cannot see how birth has anything to do with what you write about…

Lets first take a look at the text in which we speak of

John Chapter 3

1 And there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews.

2 This man came to Jesus by night, and said to him: Rabbi, we know that thou art come a teacher from God; for no man can do these signs which thou dost, unless God be with him.

3 Jesus answered, and said to him: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Now along with Nicodemus - we too ask how can a man be born again?

4 Nicodemus saith to him: How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb, and be born again?

See like you Nicodemus is connecting this rebirth to his first birth and does not understand how a man can be reborn this way for that would be impossible.

5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

By these words Jesus has declared the necessity of baptism; and by the word water it is evident that the application of it is necessary with the words we find in Matthew 28:19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

You take one word “water” and develop and whole imaginary text on it.

I am simply understanding this from an apostolic teaching standpoint - as we can see in Acts 2:38-39, Peter says, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to Him.”

 

[Texan77]

I disagree with your conclusion. In Baptism we receive the Holy Spirit and become ‘temples of the Holy Spirit’ don’t we? It is His Spirit in us who enables us to call out Abba, Father.

Just as our physical birth makes us children of our parents, Baptism, makes us children of God and heirs of heaven. This is being ‘born again’ or ‘born from above’. In the bible, isn’t being ‘born again’ synonymous with ‘being born of water and the Spirit’?

I agree - I believe we are only born again once through the sacramental waters of baptism - traditionally the sacrament of confirmation follows for adults and later for infants which seals the promises of baptism - I believe when this happens we are now responsible for our actions because we have professed our faith in Jesus Christ and His Church - this is also the reason for the sacrament of reconciliation which allows to reconcile with God through Jesus Christ so that we may once again be in full communion with Him. For outside of Christ there is no salvation.

 

[Claire_from_DE]

Dear Responder,

They are saved by that baptism, if when they grow they stay true to Christ. But as one grows older they must accept the teachings of Christ because they are now old enough. For this reason confirmation is shared. It is quite similar to a Bar Mitzphah. While young you have the God of your parent’s understanding. When you grow old you must figure out for yourself about God and accpet of your own free will through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

I am not saying that we must be confirmed to get to heaven, but the Bible teahes that the Apostles anoited people along with baptism. I hope this helps you, but I must run.
May God bless you all along your journey.

Jpaul1953

Confirmation in the Latin rite may be given to anyone who has reached the age of reason (about age 7). And it must be given at the time of Baptism to those who are Baptized and have already reached the age of reason.

What you wrote above, which I put in bold print, is a decision each person must make. But at the time a person makes that decision he may already have been confirmed. The two things don’t always go together.

 

[Stouts989]

Lets first take a look at the text in which we speak of

John Chapter 3

1 And there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews.

2 This man came to Jesus by night, and said to him: Rabbi, we know that thou art come a teacher from God; for no man can do these signs which thou dost, unless God be with him.

3 Jesus answered, and said to him: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Now along with Nicodemus - we too ask how can a man be born again?

4 Nicodemus saith to him: How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb, and be born again?

See like you Nicodemus is connecting this rebirth to his first birth and does not understand how a man can be reborn this way for that would be impossible.

5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

By these words Jesus has declared the necessity of baptism; and by the word water it is evident that the application of it is necessary with the words we find in Matthew 28:19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

I am simply understanding this from an apostolic teaching standpoint - as we can see in Acts 2:38-39, Peter says, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to Him.”

When trying to figure out what Jesus is saying to Nicodemus we can’t stop at verse 5. In your little example/Bible study you just presented…you ignored the context of the passage.

 

[Stouts989]

Confirmation in the Latin rite may be given to anyone who has reached the age of reason (about age 7). And it must be given at the time of Baptism to those who are Baptized and have already reached the age of reason.

What you wrote above, which I put in bold print, is a decision each person must make. But at the time a person makes that decision he may already have been confirmed. The two things don’t always go together.

Where does this concept of age of reason come from? And why age 7ish?

 

[Texan77]

When trying to figure out what Jesus is saying to Nicodemus we can’t stop at verse 5. In your little example/Bible study you just presented…you ignored the context of the passage.

Please continue and make your points - I will listen and reply

 

[geometer]

The text is somewhat different in the revised standard version. The Holy Ghost is never mentioned.

---

Jhn 3:1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicode’mus, a ruler of the Jews.

Jhn 3:2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that you do, unless God is with him.”

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Jhn 3:4 Nicode’mus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Jhn 3:7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born anew.’

Jhn 3:8 The wind blows where it wills, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know whence it comes or whither it goes; so it is with every one who is born of the Spirit."

Jhn 3:9 Nicode’mus said to him, “How can this be?”

Jhn 3:10 Jesus answered him, "Are you a teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand this?

Jhn 3:11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen; but you do not receive our testimony.

Jhn 3:12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

Jhn 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man.

Jhn 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of man be lifted up,

Jhn 3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life."

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Jhn 3:17 For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.

Jhn 3:18 He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

 

[Claire_from_DE]

Where does this concept of age of reason come from? And why age 7ish?

The Church had to decide when children past the age of infancy could receive the Eucharist and when they should begin to confess their sins. The age at which children were admitted to the sacraments has varied widely over the centuries and in different locations. But the minimum requirement was that they be able to distinguish the Eucharist from ordinary bread to recognize the difference between right and wrong and be responsible in some way for their actions.

I don’t know how the age of 7 was arrived at. Children at about that age can distinguish between what is real and what is ‘pretend’. At least they can say SpongeBob and fairies aren’t real but God is real.

The civil authorities have had to determine an age at which someone responsible for a crime would be prosecuted as an adult or when a person is mature enough to vote or drive a car. The concept is the same.

 

[geometer]

Jhn 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.

Jhn 8:43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word.

 

[Claire_from_DE]

The text is somewhat different in the revised standard version. The Holy Ghost is never mentioned.

‘Ghost’ is an older English translation of the word now translated as ‘spirit’. Note that the word is capitalized in the version you quote from (which is a good one). The word is Spirit, not spirit. Flesh isn’t capitalized. This indicates the understanding that Jesus is referring to the Holy Spirit, which is also translated as ‘Holy Ghost’.

Jesus wasn’t literally speaking about the air or the atmosphere. He wasn’t just talking about a ritual washing in water. We would say he was referring to the sacrament in which the power of God’s Spirit would be joined to the washing with water. The water would be a sign of the Spirit’s presence and action.

 

[Texan77]

The text is somewhat different in the revised standard version. The Holy Ghost is never mentioned.

---

Jhn 3:1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicode’mus, a ruler of the Jews.

Jhn 3:2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that you do, unless God is with him.”

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Jhn 3:4 Nicode’mus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Jhn 3:7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born anew.’

Jhn 3:8 The wind blows where it wills, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know whence it comes or whither it goes; so it is with every one who is born of the Spirit."

Jhn 3:9 Nicode’mus said to him, “How can this be?”

Jhn 3:10 Jesus answered him, "Are you a teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand this?

Jhn 3:11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen; but you do not receive our testimony.

Jhn 3:12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

Jhn 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man.

Jhn 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of man be lifted up,

Jhn 3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life."

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Jhn 3:17 For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.

Jhn 3:18 He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Okay and what points would you like to draw from which you placed in bold above?

 

[geometer]

Okay and what points would you like to draw from which you placed in bold above?

He is obviously trying to tell Nicodemus that he must be sent by God to enter into his kingdom. He must descend from heaven, born anew…

 

[Luke65]

I disagree with your conclusion. In Baptism we receive the Holy Spirit and become ‘temples of the Holy Spirit’ don’t we? It is His Spirit in us who enables us to call out Abba, Father.

Just as our physical birth makes us children of our parents, Baptism, makes us children of God and heirs of heaven. This is being ‘born again’ or ‘born from above’. In the bible, isn’t being ‘born again’ synonymous with ‘being born of water and the Spirit’?

All of that is true except that it doesn’t disagree with what I said. We are born again in Baptism - by the power of the Holy Spirit. We do become children of God and heirs to His Kingdom. We are “saved” by Baptism (1 Peter 3:21). But to “receive the Holy Spirit” is different. “The Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles’ hands” - that is not Baptism! They had already been baptized: “They had simply been baptized.” And note, that was not John’s Baptism, it was “in the name of the Lord Jesus” - St. Luke is explicit about that. Here’s more:

“Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.” (Acts 19:4-6)

Catechism: “From that time on the apostles, in fulfillment of Christ’s will, imparted to the newly baptized by the laying on of hands the gift of the Spirit that completes the grace of Baptism. For this reason in the Letter to the Hebrews the doctrine concerning Baptism and the laying on of hands is listed among the first elements of Christian instruction. The imposition of hands is rightly recognized by the Catholic tradition as the origin of the sacrament of Confirmation, which in a certain way perpetuates the grace of Pentecost in the Church.” - Pope Paul VI