To be called Muslim

[Trebor135]

There’s no single answer to this question. What IS clear, however, is this: there is no Muslim “sacrament of initiation” as we Christians understand it. Muslims do not practice baptism or anything like it. One is simply a Muslim if one resigns oneself to the will of God… and according to Muslims this is only truly possible by accepting that “there is no god but God and Muhammad is his messenger.”

What about circumcision?

 

[IbnFiktur]

What about circumcision?

It’s a requirement, but I wouldn’t call it a sacrament. At the very least, it’s not understood to mean the same thing as baptism. You don’t lose all your sins when you lose your foreskin

 

[Trebor135]

It’s a requirement, but I wouldn’t call it a sacrament. At the very least, it’s not understood to mean the same thing as baptism. You don’t lose all your sins when you lose your foreskin

Haha. I knew that circumcision was not a sacrament in Islam, which rejects the notion of matter conveying grace. Instead, we can liken it to an ordinance in Evangelical Protestantism: an outer sign of an inner change which must be performed solely because the act is a command of God.

 

[jpaul1953]

Well that’s the thing; it wasn’t necessarily a book. Remember, the Qur’an was an orally transmitted body for some time. That’s why it’s truly a work of poetry. In the desert, nomadic and largely illiterate Arabs committed things to memory in the form of poems. The Prophet’s revelations were committed to memory in much the same way and, again, are understood as the direct word of God speaking straight to Muhammad. In fact, reading the Qur’an, you can see places where God specifically says (paraphrasing): “Say this.” A more literal translation of the command would be “Recite.”

If you’re an Arabic speaker, it’s actually remarkably easy to memorize chunks of the Qur’an because almost everything rhymes quite beautifully.

So it’s not a matter of losing a book or making a few mistakes. It’s a matter of revelation that people, in their sin, ignored, misunderstood, or allowed to be forgotten. Instead some legends were recorded in these books that we Christians call scripture, and they contain shreds of truth, but are not divinely inspired and are not themselves “revelation” in the Muslim understanding of the word.

Dear Ibn Fiktur,

You claim that Muslims scholars take the four Gospels lightly. Wouldn’t that be the normal response from a believer, if these scholars are believers.?

You, of course, know that most Christians would find Mohammed teachings ridiculous since
So many differ from the teachings we believe came from Jesus.

We all understand that actions speak louder than words. Possibly 3 Gospels have written by Or for eye witnesses. They all speak the same message. Even if these writers are just telling about the history of Jesus’’ life on earth. Historians aren’t inspired by God but we read their books and take tests on them in school . The teachings of Christ seem to be a natural way to live with love as the highest authority.

For an outsider looking at Islam, it’s much harder to believe a story about a man in a cave speaking to an Archangel by himself than the story and life of Jesus as told by four different people telling similar stories about the words and actions of one we believe to be our Lord than just the words of one told by the same with actions in life that greatly differs
to our Lord’s.

Doesn’t this make sense just a little at the least?

Respectfully

Jpaul1953

 

[IbnFiktur]

Dear Ibn Fiktur,

You claim that Muslims scholars take the four Gospels lightly. Wouldn’t that be the normal response from a believer, if these scholars are believers.?

You, of course, know that most Christians would find Mohammed teachings ridiculous since
So many differ from the teachings we believe came from Jesus.

We all understand that actions speak louder than words. Possibly 3 Gospels have written by Or for eye witnesses. They all speak the same message. Even if these writers are just telling about the history of Jesus’’ life on earth. Historians aren’t inspired by God but we read their books and take tests on them in school . The teachings of Christ seem to be a natural way to live with love as the highest authority.

For an outsider looking at Islam, it’s much harder to believe a story about a man in a cave speaking to an Archangel by himself than the story and life of Jesus as told by four different people telling similar stories about the words and actions of one we believe to be our Lord than just the words of one told by the same with actions in life that greatly differs
to our Lord’s.

Doesn’t this make sense just a little at the least?

Respectfully

Jpaul1953

I’m not sure exactly what you’re asking. Are you asking if I find the claims of Christianity to be more credible than the claims of Islam? Well, I’m a Christian. The teachings of Christianity give my heart peace, and that gives me faith. So yes, of course I do.

My intention here isn’t to defend Islam (though it is sometimes subject to ridiculous polemical attacks), but rather to try to put Islamic teachings in perspective so that we can more effectively communicate and dialogue with our Muslim brothers and sisters. So the general point I was trying to make in the text you quoted isn’t that Islam is somehow more “correct” that Christianity. Rather, I’m trying to expound on what the Islamic concept of revelation is and how it differs from our own.

As far as “an archangel speaking to Muhammad in a cave…” I am not a Muslim, and I do not believe an archangel ever came to him, but I would avoid taking such a condescending tone about Muhammad. It is rather incredible that he was able to compose one of the most beautiful pieces of poetry I’ve ever read, mobilize support in the majority-pagan Arabian peninsula, and found a religion which mere years after his death toppled an ancient empire and cut another in half. My point here is that it would be harmful to our understanding and perspective to somehow downplay Muhammad’s accomplishments. Regardless of the truth or lack thereof of his prophethood (and of course as Christians we deny that truth), we cannot deny that he did some things that were truly unbelievable. That is why, without acknowledging the truth of Islam, you can certainly respect it and its adherents.

So if I had to sum up my response to your question: I am Christian and I deny the truth in most of the claims of Islam; however, I believe it is vitally important to understand Islamic thought and theology so that we of different faiths can better communicate. That is my purpose in comparing Christian and Muslim concepts of revelation.

 

[robwar]

I just read something on a christian muslim forum. It said simply that to qualify to be called muslim:
One must believe in Moses (Musa)
One must believe in Jesus (Isa)
One must believe in all the biblical prophets
One must believe in the Torah (Tawrat)
One must believe in the Psalms (Zabur)
One must believe in the Gospel (Injil)

I’m at a loss. where does it say you have to believe in Mohammed.
I mainly bring this up because to go to Mecca one must be a muslim. So does that mean a christian can go there?

Needless to say I’m curious.

when they say they believe in Jesus, they are saying his just a prophet and not the Son of God or one with the Father as Christians do. They do not believe that he died on the cross and that is was someone else. They believe Mohammed is the final and true prophet.
They view the OT and NT as corrupted. To be a Muslem you must repeat the Shahada and practice the 5 pillars of Islam which include a trip to Mecca and Holy war.

 

[robwar]

I’m not sure exactly what you’re asking. Are you asking if I find the claims of Christianity to be more credible than the claims of Islam? Well, I’m a Christian. The teachings of Christianity give my heart peace, and that gives me faith. So yes, of course I do.

My intention here isn’t to defend Islam (though it is sometimes subject to ridiculous polemical attacks), but rather to try to put Islamic teachings in perspective so that we can more effectively communicate and dialogue with our Muslim brothers and sisters. So the general point I was trying to make in the text you quoted isn’t that Islam is somehow more “correct” that Christianity. Rather, I’m trying to expound on what the Islamic concept of revelation is and how it differs from our own.

As far as “an archangel speaking to Muhammad in a cave…” I am not a Muslim, and I do not believe an archangel ever came to him, but I would avoid taking such a condescending tone about Muhammad. It is rather incredible that he was able to compose one of the most beautiful pieces of poetry I’ve ever read, mobilize support in the majority-pagan Arabian peninsula, and found a religion which mere years after his death toppled an ancient empire and cut another in half. My point here is that it would be harmful to our understanding and perspective to somehow downplay Muhammad’s accomplishments. Regardless of the truth or lack thereof of his prophethood (and of course as Christians we deny that truth), we cannot deny that he did some things that were truly unbelievable. That is why, without acknowledging the truth of Islam, you can certainly respect it and its adherents.

So if I had to sum up my response to your question: I am Christian and I deny the truth in most of the claims of Islam; however, I believe it is vitally important to understand Islamic thought and theology so that we of different faiths can better communicate. That is my purpose in comparing Christian and Muslim concepts of revelation.

Muhammad was basically a war lord and spread his faith which was rejected by his own Arab tribe by war. The earliest records of him by Muslims themselves do not paint a flattering picture of him. He would change his revelations from Allah to give himself the advantage which gives rise to the contradictory hadiths that are out there about him and the Koran. Islam rejects the teaching of the trinity and while many point out he borrowed from Christianity, he also borrowed a lot from Judaism as well. When Mohammed did win battles, he gave the captives the choices to convert, or be heavily taxed or be killed.
I think your point is that we need dialog but to overlook a violent history and sweep it under the carpet in the name of dialog is not being honest. The main difference in the view of God which is trinitarian for the Christians and not for Muslims.

 

[IbnFiktur]

I think your point is that we need dialog but to overlook a violent history and sweep it under the carpet in the name of dialog is not being honest. The main difference in the view of God which is trinitarian for the Christians and not for Muslims.

Who are you to put such words in my mouth? I said no such thing.

The fact is that Islam is a long-standing religion with millions of adherents and a rich tradition of religious, theological, and scientific thought. Don’t you wonder how such a civilization reconciles the nature of the spread of Islam (which was no doubt by war, as you indicated) with their history of toleration and progress?

John Paul II and St. Francis of Assisi both had a tremendous amount of respect for Muslims. I suggest that you, like those holy men, learn something about them, and try to do so fairly and charitably. You can acknowledge the facts of Islam while still trying to understand Islamic thought, and you can do so without resorting to gross oversimplifications to describe a religion that covers a vast geography and contains millions of diverse people with diverse traditions.

 

[robwar]

Who are you to put such words in my mouth? I said no such thing.

The fact is that Islam is a long-standing religion with millions of adherents and a rich tradition of religious, theological, and scientific thought. Don’t you wonder how such a civilization reconciles the nature of the spread of Islam (which was no doubt by war, as you indicated) with their history of toleration and progress?

John Paul II and St. Francis of Assisi both had a tremendous amount of respect for Muslims. I suggest that you, like those holy men, learn something about them, and try to do so fairly and charitably. You can acknowledge the facts of Islam while still trying to understand Islamic thought, and you can do so without resorting to gross oversimplifications to describe a religion that covers a vast geography and contains millions of diverse people with diverse traditions.

Respect shown to people is different than promoting Islam. St. Francis was disappointed that there were not more conversions and they didn’t go to the East to shake hands. John Paul II actually met more with the Dalai Lama than any particular Muslim. Islam is not tolerant of any other faiths. Saudi Arabia is one of the most intolerant nations on the earth.
It is run in the tradition of Mohammed himself which wanted the Arabia peninsula to be completely Muslim. The treatment of women in any of these nations is horrific. The Koran itself recommends that men beat their disobedient wives and that women are “tilth” for men. I am not sure where you get all this wonderful tolerance and peace. Sadly, it is not there. Jews, Christians, Hindus, Bhudists etc have all been persecuted, killed, taxed etc
wherever Islam becomes the dominate faith in the area and the Government in acts Sharia Law.

 

[IbnFiktur]

Respect shown to people is different than promoting Islam. St. Francis was disappointed that there were not more conversions and they didn’t go to the East to shake hands. John Paul II actually met more with the Dalai Lama than any particular Muslim. Islam is not tolerant of any other faiths. Saudi Arabia is one of the most intolerant nations on the earth.
It is run in the tradition of Mohammed himself which wanted the Arabia peninsula to be completely Muslim. The treatment of women in any of these nations is horrific. The Koran itself recommends that men beat their disobedient wives and that women are “tilth” for men. I am not sure where you get all this wonderful tolerance and peace. Sadly, it is not there. Jews, Christians, Hindus, Bhudists etc have all been persecuted, killed, taxed etc
wherever Islam becomes the dominate faith in the area and the Government in acts Sharia Law.

There you go again, putting words in my mouth. I am not promoting Islam. Read my posts in this thread, and you will rather learn something about Islam. I am not saying anything that is not entirely true.

As I have said in countless other threads, pulling one-liners from the Qur’an in order to prove how terrible Islam is as a religion is no more productive than pulling one-liners from the Bible to (as many anti-Christians do) to prove how terrible Christianity is. Talking about instances of persecution is equally useless, as the Muslim world has historically been more tolerant to other religions than Western Christendom. I’m not saying we should get into a competition to say who persecuted who more. I’m saying that it’s not a fair way to judge a religion or its people, and if you want fair treatment for Christianity I suggest you treat others as you wish your own faith to be treated. To that end I am trying to help posters in this thread understand Islamic theology and how it differs from ours. This will help foster understanding and communication between our two faiths. And yes, this will also help in evangelizing the Muslim world. Good luck trying to talk to people whose faith you don’t understand and try to convince them that yours is better.

I’d also encourage you to meet some Muslims.

 

[Trebor135]

Respect shown to people is different than promoting Islam.

To me IbnFiktur didn’t seem to be promoting Islam–considering his Arabic username, this new member of CAF may be of Egyptian, Levantine, or Iraqi descent and therefore not well disposed to Islam. IbnFiktur was pointing out that one must understand and respect an opponent in order to achieve success against it.

St. Francis was disappointed that there were not more conversions

In what context?

and they didn’t go to the East to shake hands.

Didn’t St. Francis meet with the `Abbasid caliph reigning at the time and pave the way for the latter’s conversion(!) and baptism?

John Paul II actually met more with the Dalai Lama than any particular Muslim.

Given that Islam numerically exceeds Buddhism in terms of worldwide adherents, and Christians suffer far more oppression in Muslim countries than Buddhist ones, this seems odd.

 

[Trebor135]

There you go again, putting words in my mouth. I am not promoting Islam. Read my posts in this thread, and you will rather learn something about Islam. I am not saying anything that is not entirely true.

As I have said in countless other threads, pulling one-liners from the Qur’an in order to prove how terrible Islam is as a religion is no more productive than pulling one-liners from the Bible to (as many anti-Christians do) to prove how terrible Christianity is. Talking about instances of persecution is equally useless, as the Muslim world has historically been more tolerant to other religions than Western Christendom. I’m not saying we should get into a competition to say who persecuted who more. I’m saying that it’s not a fair way to judge a religion or its people, and if you want fair treatment for Christianity I suggest you treat others as you wish your own faith to be treated. To that end I am trying to help posters in this thread understand Islamic theology and how it differs from ours. This will help foster understanding and communication between our two faiths. And yes, this will also help in evangelizing the Muslim world. Good luck trying to talk to people whose faith you don’t understand and try to convince them that yours is better.

I’d also encourage you to meet some Muslims.

 

[jpaul1953]

I’m not sure exactly what you’re asking. Are you asking if I find the claims of Christianity to be more credible than the claims of Islam? Well, I’m a Christian. The teachings of Christianity give my heart peace, and that gives me faith. So yes, of course I do.

My intention here isn’t to defend Islam (though it is sometimes subject to ridiculous polemical attacks), but rather to try to put Islamic teachings in perspective so that we can more effectively communicate and dialogue with our Muslim brothers and sisters. So the general point I was trying to make in the text you quoted isn’t that Islam is somehow more “correct” that Christianity. Rather, I’m trying to expound on what the Islamic concept of revelation is and how it differs from our own.

As far as “an archangel speaking to Muhammad in a cave…” I am not a Muslim, and I do not believe an archangel ever came to him, but I would avoid taking such a condescending tone about Muhammad. It is rather incredible that he was able to compose one of the most beautiful pieces of poetry I’ve ever read, mobilize support in the majority-pagan Arabian peninsula, and found a religion which mere years after his death toppled an ancient empire and cut another in half. My point here is that it would be harmful to our understanding and perspective to somehow downplay Muhammad’s accomplishments. Regardless of the truth or lack thereof of his prophethood (and of course as Christians we deny that truth), we cannot deny that he did some things that were truly unbelievable. That is why, without acknowledging the truth of Islam, you can certainly respect it and its adherents.

So if I had to sum up my response to your question: I am Christian and I deny the truth in most of the claims of Islam; however, I believe it is vitally important to understand Islamic thought and theology so that we of different faiths can better communicate. That is my purpose in comparing Christian and Muslim concepts of revelation.

Dear Ibn Fiktur ,

I was not being condescending. I was more so comparing your comment that Muslim scholars might find our Gospels laughable to the issue of Muhammed being in a cave with an Archangel.

I know there are many holy Muslims. I would be a fool to doubt that. What I do not agree with is your apparent belief that Mohammed is in someway responsible for the incredible growth of Islam. This religion has grown for many reasons, some proper and some not proper. Mohammed was but a mere mortal. He may have only helped fill a void in lives that gave order to one’s life, but as many historians have stated, millions of Muslims were force fed the faith. And, yes I know Christianity had some similar periods, but nowhere near the degree.

Respectfully,

Jpaul1953

 

[IbnFiktur]

Dear Ibn Fiktur ,

I was not being condescending. I was more so comparing your comment that Muslim scholars might find our Gospels laughable to the issue of Muhammed being in a cave with an Archangel.

I know there are many holy Muslims. I would be a fool to doubt that. What I do not agree with is your apparent belief that Mohammed is in someway responsible for the incredible growth of Islam. This religion has grown for many reasons, some proper and some not proper. Mohammed was but a mere mortal. He may have only helped fill a void in lives that gave order to one’s life, but as many historians have stated, millions of Muslims were force fed the faith. And, yes I know Christianity had some similar periods, but nowhere near the degree.

Respectfully,

Jpaul1953

Thank you for the clarification friend, I apologize for misunderstanding you.

The idea of whether Muhammad was responsible for the incredible growth of Islam is, as I’m sure you know, a matter of historical rather than religious debate. Historians of a variety of different faiths disagree on the topic, so I would say that as of today there is no clear answer.

I’d humbly offer my own perspective though. The Qur’an, though not authentic scripture, is a beautiful work of literature for a man who lived in a pre-literate society. And though he did not see the expansion of Islam beyond the Arabian peninsula in his own lifetime, he did spread monotheism throughout that peninsula, which was almost exclusively pagan. This is something that Christian and Jewish merchants and residents of the Arabian peninsula were never able to do… or perhaps simply didn’t think enough of the nomadic bedouins to bother trying. He was also an effective governor, administrator, and general during his lifetime. All this makes him a historically remarkable man.

That’s my two cents on the matter, thank you for clarifying your earlier point

 

[Trebor135]

…

My username appeared in the quote tags in this post–were you intending to comment on something I had written but your response got lost in transmission?

 

[jpaul1953]

Thank you for the clarification friend, I apologize for misunderstanding you.

The idea of whether Muhammad was responsible for the incredible growth of Islam is, as I’m sure you know, a matter of historical rather than religious debate. Historians of a variety of different faiths disagree on the topic, so I would say that as of today there is no clear answer.

I’d humbly offer my own perspective though. The Qur’an, though not authentic scripture, is a beautiful work of literature for a man who lived in a pre-literate society. And though he did not see the expansion of Islam beyond the Arabian peninsula in his own lifetime, he did spread monotheism throughout that peninsula, which was almost exclusively pagan. This is something that Christian and Jewish merchants and residents of the Arabian peninsula were never able to do… or perhaps simply didn’t think enough of the nomadic bedouins to bother trying. He was also an effective governor, administrator, and general during his lifetime. All this makes him a historically remarkable man.

That’s my two cents on the matter, thank you for clarifying your earlier point

Dear Ibn Fiktur,

I greatly appreciate your Knowledge on this matter. You have widened my perspective. Your point about Mohammed successfully bringing a vast area to leave paganism for the belief in one God. That is massive accomplishment . It alone would have been massive if 2-million people were able to convince another 2-million that there is but one God.

I knew about his well-known arbitering ability unmatched in his lifetime along with instinctual ability to govern.

I know several Arab Muslims in Brooklyn, NY. I have not met one that I dislike . They know I am Catholic and we speak about all sides of our faiths with mutual respect.

I believe one must live their faith as true as one can. I believe that is what God wants from each of us . When I was a child I believed immaturely that only Catholics will go to Heaven and not many at that. Now I believe as it is spoken in Romans 2 about those without the law being granted eternity if they live it by their conscience as best they can.

May God bless you and your family. You sure sound like a good man. Thank you for your imput. It helped open my eyes a bit more.

Respectfully,

Jpaul1953

 

[jpaul1953]

My username appeared in the quote tags in this post–were you intending to comment on something I had written but your response got lost in transmission?

Hi Trebor

I don’t believe I sent it mistakenly. Sorry for the confusion

Take care,

Jpaul1953

 

[robwar]

There you go again, putting words in my mouth. I am not promoting Islam. Read my posts in this thread, and you will rather learn something about Islam. I am not saying anything that is not entirely true.

As I have said in countless other threads, pulling one-liners from the Qur’an in order to prove how terrible Islam is as a religion is no more productive than pulling one-liners from the Bible to (as many anti-Christians do) to prove how terrible Christianity is. Talking about instances of persecution is equally useless, as the Muslim world has historically been more tolerant to other religions than Western Christendom. I’m not saying we should get into a competition to say who persecuted who more. I’m saying that it’s not a fair way to judge a religion or its people, and if you want fair treatment for Christianity I suggest you treat others as you wish your own faith to be treated. To that end I am trying to help posters in this thread understand Islamic theology and how it differs from ours. This will help foster understanding and communication between our two faiths. And yes, this will also help in evangelizing the Muslim world. Good luck trying to talk to people whose faith you don’t understand and try to convince them that yours is better.

I’d also encourage you to meet some Muslims.

Excuse me, i live in an area with a high Muslim population, Also had a brother live in Saudi Arabia for a year. Most importantly, I also know and number of Christians that have lived in places like Iraq and Syria that had to leave do to persecution. I have a hard time believing you are actually Christian with such a heavy promotion of Islam.

 

[IbnFiktur]

Excuse me, i live in an area with a high Muslim population, Also had a brother live in Saudi Arabia for a year. Most importantly, I also know and number of Christians that have lived in places like Iraq and Syria that had to leave do to persecution. I have a hard time believing you are actually Christian with such a heavy promotion of Islam.

Please, show me somewhere in this thread where I have posted anything about Islam that was:

-Untrue
-Unchristian
-Showing some sort of personal belief in Islam

And how dare you accuse me of not being a Christian. That is truly offensive to me, friend, and uncharitable.