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MariaG
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I never noticed/knew that!
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MariaG
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I can’t find the Scripture. (At least I think it is Scripture and not Early Church Fathers?) but isn’t there Scripture that talks of Jesus being the new Adam? Adam of course, was created without original sin. (Probably in Romans somewhere, I’ll keep looking)
I did not know RyanL’s response, but I also think it is significant that Jesus would call her woman and Eve was not called by a name until she sinned.
- This is a bit off topic but it kind of goes in the same direction at the same time. We can start a new thread off it if you would like…
I have noticed, in my study, that Jesus never refers to Mary as ‘Mother’. We are the ones who give her that title but He always refers to her as ‘woman’.
But the verse taking about All have sinned is not talking about original sin but personal sin.
So if all have sinned (personally), therefore Mary had to have sinned also is the argument, then it is perfectly logically to demand what personal sin infants have to make that verse impossible to have any exceptions that may or may not include Mary.
The contention is that the Catholic doctrine on Mary’s sinlessness contradicts Scripture. All have sinned is “proof” of the contradiction. Because all has to mean all with no exceptions.
But clearly since in the context of the verse Paul is talking of personal sin, if there are no exceptions to someone having personal sin then to demand what personal sin infants have is logical.
I would pray everyone would treat you with kindness and a Christian manner. (Although, the #2 is probably going to set someone off. Brace yourself.) Your questions are always honest and you speak from the heart.Anyway, I know that not everyone is going to agree with these points. In fact the majority of you are going to scoff, complain, disagree, and ridicule these thoughts and that is your right. I can’t wait to hear what you have to say!
God Bless,
Maria
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Kurt_G
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Nice to mention that beautiful jewel, MariaG.
We can listen to convert Tim Staples expound on that very point, in his wonderful tape series, “All Generations Shall Call Me Blessed”.
Tim then brings up that God Himself promises “enmity” (total oppostion) to exist, as a future event, between Satan and “the Woman”.
Since Eve has already cooperated with Satan at this point, there can be no “total opposition” between Eve and the Serpent. “Woman” must mean someone else, not Eve.
Whoever it does mean, she will have a Son who also is promised to have “total opposition” to Satan.
The Mother (Mary) and the Son (Jesus) are both promised to have enmity (total opposition) to Evil.
I would step out here and claim (but somebody jump in if I’m wrong) that nowhere else in Holy Scripture is enmity promised between anyone else and the Devil. Scripture only lists these two people…That’s what Genesis looks like it says, at least to Tim (and me too).
God Bless Us All!
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CollegeKid
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save me Jesus:
well, what do I know
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JaneFrances
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Hey Singinin’Anyway, I know that not everyone is going to agree with these points. In fact the majority of you are going to scoff, complain, disagree, and ridicule these thoughts and that is your right. I can’t wait to hear what you have to say!
- The whole ‘do you think newborns sin’ argument is weak at best. We aren’t necessarily talking about the ACTION of sinning that is attached to us but we are talking about the Original Sin that is attached from birth. We all fall short of the Glory of God. No one, not even a baby, can earn the place next to God. It is Jesus’ sacrifice that brings us to God, not our own volition.
Most of your thoughts have already been addressed well I think here, but something that I haven’t read a response to and that really concerns me is the end of your third point.
You say that “we all fall short of the Glory of God. No one, not even a baby, can earn the place next to God.”
I just wanted say THAT’S THE WHOLE POINT! No human being can “earn” grace. That’s why it’s GRACE. It is a free gift of our most loving, merciful, and just God. Christ redeemed the whole world. He is the Savior of all mankind. This includes his own mother! This is precisely why we look to what the angel said to the Blessed Mother. . .
He called her “kecharitomene.” This word is just so full of inspiration. An angel of the Lord appeared to a young woman who had found favor with the Lord and the angel said to her “Hail, Kecharitomene! The Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women.” The name given to address Mary literally translates to “full of grace” or “wholly gift of God.”
This is how we understand the blessedness and sinlessness of the Mother of our Lord. She is “full of grace” and the special favor she has found with the Lord is wholly a gift from the Almighty! She, like newborn babies, did not earn this gift of grace and holiness. God is great, He can do anything he desires according to his will! He willed for a young Jewish girl to become the mother of the Lord and he prepared her perfectly for that role.
As Catholics (and Orthodox and many early Protestants), we do not assign Mary attributes that are inappropriate to her position. Her sinlessness is a manifestation of her incredible role in salvation history. It is wholly a gift from God. She was filled with the grace of God such that even before her Son entered the world and fulfilled his saving mission, she could say truly and without reservation:
“My being proclaims the greatness of the Lord, my spirit finds joy in God my savior. . .” (Luke 1:46-47).
None of us proclaim the greatness of the Lord better than when we follow His perfect will for our lives and sin and disobedience have no place in that. And Mary, unlike any other creature, experienced the saving power of her Lord and God and Son from the very first moment the Almighty chose her to bring forth the Savior!
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Kurt_G
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JaneFrances, this is so… beautiful! I printed it for sharing in my group (hope you don’t mind).
God Bless Us All!
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MariaG
Guest
Thanks Ryan! I had never read those. I especially liked the first one, step by step.
And isn’t funny, someone can tell us it is in the Bible, but sometimes we just can’t quite believe it until we read it ourselves? Kind of makes me sympathetic to Scripture alone people
God Bless,
Maria
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MariaG
Guest
Kurt G.:
God Bless,
Maria
Is this series only on tape or is it in a book also? I think I’ll have to get it either way.
God Bless,
Maria
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