To be deep in the Bible: Just War

[MariaG]

From this messy thread here

(Matthew 5:38-39) “You have learnt how it was said: Eye for eye and tooth for tooth. But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance. On the contrary, if anyone hits you on the right cheek, offer him the other as well;”

The Church accepts a “Just war”

In the Bible Jesus tells that there will be those who will cry “Lord, Lord” to Him but He will not know them because they did not help Him when He was in need. (The poor, the hungry etc.) A “just war” is one with a for example like WWII. By not helping, we would be responsible for not helping our brothers in need.

Turn the other cheek is a personal admonition. Turn the other cheek for my own personal sufferings. Not turn the other cheek on my brothers suffering. That would be walking past those in need. God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

originally posted by
(Matthew 5:38-39) “You have learnt how it was said: Eye for eye and tooth for tooth. But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance. On the contrary, if anyone hits you on the right cheek, offer him the other as well;”

The Church accepts a “Just war”

Response from Post # 42 originally posted by Brendan
The Church accepts the concept of a just war because God Himself does.

God Himself has commanded war (agaist the Cannaites and the Bashan); if all war is unjust, God has commited an injustice, correct?

Is that the doctrine you follow? That it is possible for God to command injustice?

In addition, there is Ecc 3

There is an appointed time for everything,
and a time for every affair under the heavens.
2 A time to be born, and a time to die;
a time to plant, and a time to uproot the plant.
3 A time to kill, and a time to heal;
a time to tear down, and a time to build.
4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh;
a time to mourn, and a time to dance.
5 A time to scatter stones, and a time to gather them;
a time to embrace, and a time to be far from embraces.
6 A time to seek, and a time to lose;
a time to keep, and a time to cast away.
7 A time to rend, and a time to sew;
a time to be silent, and a time to speak.
8 A time to love, and a time to hate;
a time of war, and a time of peace.

Is God somehow confused?

---

 

[MariaG]

Response to Brendan originally posted by Giver post #43

No God isn’t confused, just most people. Jesus is God and He came to create a new covenant with His people, and in the new covenant He gave us many new commands. One of these new commands is:
(Matthew 5:38-39) “You have learnt how it was said: Eye for eye and tooth for tooth. But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance. On the contrary, if anyone hits you on the right cheek, offer him the other as well;”

 

[MariaG]

originally posted by Della post #44 in response to Giver

Jesus wasn’t discussing warfare in this verse, but being insulted–a big difference than cannot be ignored in an attempt to “prove” Jesus was some kind of pacifist–if that is what you are saying here. Let’s not read into Jesus’ saying what isn’t there or second guess the Church he established. It doesn’t promote the truth, but rather only muddies the waters.

 

[MariaG]

Originally posted by Brendan post #45

Giver,

So did God commit an injustice when He commanded the Israelites to make war on the Bashan?

For, if as you say, all war is unjust, then God commanded an unjust act, correct?

Or, if you hold that God cannot be, or command, an unjust act, then one must hold that war can be a just act under particular circumstances, then by definition, there IS such a thing a just war.

(which, I might add, is the position of the Catholic Church )

So which one of those do you hold to?

#1 - That ALL war is unjust and therefore God can command injustice

or

#2 - The that war may, under specific circumstances, serve the cause of Justice

---

Brendan

 

[Giver]

MariaG:
Neither answer is correct. Jesus is God and He came to create a new covenant with His people, and in the new covenant He gave us many new commands. One of these new commands was to love our enemies.

 

[koda]

Giver:

Neither answer is correct. Jesus is God and He came to create a new covenant with His people, and in the new covenant He gave us many new commands. One of these new commands was to love our enemies.

I agree!

 

[NotWorthy]

Giver:

Neither answer is correct. Jesus is God and He came to create a new covenant with His people, and in the new covenant He gave us many new commands. One of these new commands was to love our enemies.

So, Robert, ask Jesus to tell you how we should have dealt with Hitler. Should we have let him slaughter all of the Jews and the rest of Europe?

Notworthy

 

[Steven_Merten]

Hello Maria,

In the immediate acts of the Church, the Holy Spirit and Church leader, St. Peter, use capital punishment by putting to death Ananias and Sapphira. God commands no revenge in Old Testament the same as God does in New Testament. Jesus tells us that the whole Old Testament is built on God’s commands to love your neighbor as yourself and love God as is the New Testament. Jesus commands us to obey God’s ten commandments if we wish to go to heaven.

The anti-war, anti-capital punsihment crowd work hard to manipulate a concept that God has changed, when in truth, God does not change. War and capital punishment, for the protection of the innocent, fit into Jesus’ and the Father’s call to love our neighbor.

NAB MAT 22:36 The Great Commandment.“Teacher, which commandment of the law is the greatest?” Jesus said to him:

“‘You shall love the Lord your God
with our whole heart,
with your whole soul,
and with all your mind.’
This is the greatest and first commandment. The second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments the whole law is based, and the prophets as well.”

**NAB LEV 19:17 **

**“You shall not bear hatred for your brother in your heart. Though you may have to reprove your fellow man, do not incur sin because of him. Take no revenge and cherish no grudge against your fellow countrymen. You shall love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.” **NAB ACT 5:1 Another man named Ananias and his wife Sapphira likewise sold a piece of property. With the connivance of his wife he put aside a part of the proceeds for himself; the rest he took and laid at the feet of the apostles. Peter exclaimed: “Ananias, why have you let Satan fill your heart so as to make you lie to the Holy Spirit and keep for yourself some of the proceeds from that field? Was it not yours so long as it remained unsold”? Even when you sold it, was not the money still yours? How could you ever concoct such a scheme? You have lied not to men but to God!" At the sound of these words, Ananias fell dead. Great fear came upon all who later heard of it. Some of the young men came forward, wrapped up the body, and carried it out for burial. Three hours later Ananias’ wife came in, unaware of what had happened. Peter said to her, “Tell me, did you sell that piece of property for such and such an amount?” She answered, “Yes, that was the sum.” Peter replied, “How could you two scheme to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test? The footsteps of the men who have just buried your husband can be heard at the door. They stand ready to carry you out too.” At that, she fell dead at his feet. The young men came in, found her dead, and carried her out for burial beside her husband. Great fear came on the whole church and on all who heard of it.

 

[Giver]

NotWorthy:

So, Robert, ask Jesus to tell you how we should have dealt with Hitler. Should we have let him slaughter all of the Jews and the rest of Europe?

Notworthy

Notworthy, Thank you for asking this question, for I have wanted to give an answer to this question. If all the Christians would have gotten down on their knees and asked God to stop Hitler instead of trusting in their armies, Hitler would have been defeated without any lives lost. Also if all Christians had just refused to fight there wouldn’t have been much of an army on any side.

We need to learn to trust God!!!

 

[RobNY]

Giver:

Neither answer is correct. Jesus is God and He came to create a new covenant with His people, and in the new covenant He gave us many new commands. One of these new commands was to love our enemies

We’re also called to love our neigbor. Fighting a just war is another and indeed, I’d say a high, form of loving your neighbor.

 

[NotWorthy]

Giver:

Notworthy, Thank you for asking this question, for I have wanted to give an answer to this question. If all the Christians would have gotten down on their knees and asked God to stop Hitler instead of trusting in their armies, Hitler would have been defeated without any lives lost. Also if all Christians had just refused to fight there wouldn’t have been much of an army on any side.

We need to learn to trust God!!!

Robert, to have done that would have meant that God would have had to reveal himself to the entire world. Then it would have been easy to believe in God, not just an act of faith.

“Blessed are those who haven’t seen and yet believe”.

Notworthy

 

[Todd_Easton]

It is soldiers who fight wars and the believing soldiers mentioned in the Gospels and Acts, as far as I can tell, were not instructed to cease being soldiers. Instead, soldiers were told:
“Rob no one by violence or by false accusation, and be content with your wages.” (Luke 3:14)
The implication of St. John the Baptist’s words is that “a Christian soldier” and therefore “a just war” are not incompatable with the Gospel.

 

[Giver]

RobNY:

We’re also called to love our neigbor. Fighting a just war is another and indeed, I’d say a high, form of loving your neighbor.

I would say not having faith in God, and not loving God.

 

[Giver]

Todd Easton:

It is soldiers who fight wars and the believing soldiers mentioned in the Gospels and Acts, as far as I can tell, were not instructed to cease being soldiers. Instead, soldiers were told:
“Rob no one by violence or by false accusation, and be content with your wages.” (Luke 3:14)
The implication of St. John the Baptist’s words is that “a Christian soldier” and therefore “a just war” are not incompatable with the Gospel.

John The Baptist was still under the covenant of the old law. Remember Jesus came to establish a new covenant.

 

[Giver]

NotWorthy:

Robert, to have done that would have meant that God would have had to reveal himself to the entire world. Then it would have been easy to believe in God, not just an act of faith.

“Blessed are those who haven’t seen and yet believe”.

Notworthy

What kind of answer is that? Jesus has reviled Himself to the whole world but the world accepted Him not. Also what is hard about living in faith, if faith has been given to you? If a person has been given faith that Jesus is God then it should be easy to hear His Word and live it.

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

Yes, by all means pray that God would bring peace, but sometimes good men and women are called to action. If my friend breaks his arm, I will definitely pray that God will heal his arm, but I’ll also take my friend to the hospital. If my family runs low on food, I will definitely pray that God will provide more food, but I will also work for a paycheck so that I can buy food. If an evil force threatens the nations of the world, I will definitely pray that God will stop the war, but I will also take action to fight against the evil. To pray and do nothing is like having faith without deeds.

God Bless!

 

[NotWorthy]

Giver:

What kind of answer is that? Jesus has reviled Himself to the whole world but the world accepted Him not.

Robert, I sure hope you meant “revealed” instead of “reviled”!!! Although with some people, that may be accurate…

Giver:

Also what is hard about living in faith, if faith has been given to you? If a person has been given faith that Jesus is God then it should be easy to hear His Word and live it.

Amen! But the Faith is based on reaching out and searching for Him. If we believe in God because He has revealed himself as you mentioned earlier, our faith would be based on something we’ve seen.

Take Care!

Notworthy

 

[Giver]

The Iambic Pen:

Yes, by all means pray that God would bring peace, but sometimes good men and women are called to action. If my friend breaks his arm, I will definitely pray that God will heal his arm, but I’ll also take my friend to the hospital. If my family runs low on food, I will definitely pray that God will provide more food, but I will also work for a paycheck so that I can buy food. If an evil force threatens the nations of the world, I will definitely pray that God will stop the war, but I will also take action to fight against the evil. To pray and do nothing is like having faith without deeds.

God Bless!

Jesus never told us not to give clothes and food to our enemies or friends, but He did tell us to love our enemies and not to kill them.

Jesus is God and if it is His will that someone should die or not die it is His decision not ours.

 

[Brendan]

Giver:

Neither answer is correct. Jesus is God and He came to create a new covenant with His people, and in the new covenant He gave us many new commands. One of these new commands was to love our enemies.

One of the two has to be incorrect.

How about this then, When God commanded the Jews to make war on the Bashan, was that injustice?

I’m sure we all agree that God could have chosen any method at all to make Caanan ready for the Israelites to return (plaques, various natural disasters, ect…), but the method that God chose was war.

Was that an unjust decision by God?

as simple yes or no will suffice?