To Be in Heaven, You Must Be Catholic

[Alizarin]

Is there no right of conscience then? If all people are subject to the Pontiff in all cases, where does personal autonomy and Christian freedom reside?

someone sees it…

 

[Alizarin]

I did cut and paste from your post which I reviewed more than once, and I apologize if I misunderstood what you meant. I did see your point about the Pope rejecting dictatorship at that time. There was no attempt to make you look bad by truncating your post.

That said, it’s still not completely clear to me whether you think being subject to the Roman Pontiff is good or bad. So, why not take talk of “dictators” out of the discussion and simply address that for me.

Thanks.

I wasn’t debating whether it was good or bad, I was debating the idea of being subject to a clergyman of a different religion than mine.

 

[Jozefo]

someone sees it…

I’ve found in my 13 years in the Church that this subject is… maybe ‘ignored’ is the best way to describe it. I know the Church teaches that all of us have a right of conscience, but sadly, a lot of people are confused by the idea.

 

[MJCamp]

What authority did the Apostles and Disciples have? None?

 

[Alizarin]

I’ve found in my 13 years in the Church that this subject is… maybe ‘ignored’ is the best way to describe it. I know the Church teaches that all of us have a right of conscience, but sadly, a lot of people are confused by the idea.

:yup: Only time I ever heard it talked about (when I was Catholic) was when a more left wing Catholic used it to justify abortion, and other hot-button social issues.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Ah, invincible ignorance. A question on this:

While certainly no expert, I believe I have a pretty fair knowledge of what the Catholic Church in communion with the Bishop of Rome teaches. I have made a point to do so. Even so, I remain Lutheran. Some might say I have voided any hope of salvation on the claim of invincible ignorance.

Would it be better, more charitable, if Catholics went out of their way NOT to share the Catholic faith with non-Catholics, therefore ensuring their invincible ignorance?
(Maybe this should be a separate thread?)

Jon

Not sure if anyone said this, but I think the point of “invincible ignorance” isn’t just knowing things about the Catholic Church, like an academic study of it for example, but knowing that it is the true Church of Christ, the Church He established, the “only true Church” with the fulness of Truth, and still reject it.

IMO.

 

[SteveVH]

Is there no right of conscience then? If all people are subject to the Pontiff in all cases, where does personal autonomy and Christian freedom reside?

Christian freedom resides in the Truth of Jesus Christ, the truth given to the Church by Christ, handed down by the Apostles and protected by the Holy Spirit. Freedom resides in our complete surrender to the Truth of Jesus Christ. As far as our personal autonomy is concerned, we have the freedom to conform our lives to the truth found in the Church Christ founded or we have the freedom to reject it and choose our own path. If you wish to choose your own path, to hold your opinions and judgment above that of Christ’s Church, the “pillar and foundation of truth”, you are certainly free to do so. Good luck with that.

 

[justin69]

Provocative title, eh?

I hoped to get your attention, because I’m floating this argument which I put together this morning.

1. Jesus only has one body.
2. To be in heaven, one must be a member of the body of Christ
3. The body of Christ is the Church.
4. The Church instituted by Christ has a name – the Catholic Church.
   Therefore, to be in heaven, one must be a member of the Catholic Church.

I anticipate some possible objection to 1 and much rejection to 4, but let’s see how it unfolds.

I look forward to reading your thoughts for and against.

where does it say in the bible that you have to be catholic. it doesn’t, why do the people on here have to be so vain .Romans 10:13 says, “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” Whosoever is anyone, including you. If you truly believe that you are a sinner, that the payment of your sin is Hell, that Jesus died and paid it for you, that he offers you eternal life as a free gift, and that all you have to do to receive the gift is to ask him, he will save you!

AMEN

 

[Alizarin]

Not sure if anyone said this, but I think the point of “invincible ignorance” isn’t just knowing things about the Catholic Church, like an academic study of it for example, but knowing that it is the true Church of Christ, the Church He established, the “only true Church” with the fulness of Truth, and still reject it.

IMO.

And I think Jon’s point was if they knew without a doubt, why would they reject it? Protestants reject it it because we have serious doubts as to the veracity of that claim.

 

[Jozefo]

What authority did the Apostles and Disciples have? None?

The power of binding and loosing, an idiom for desribing the administrative authority to regulate in matters pertaining to his Church. That is not omnipotence. It is limited in scope only to matters of faith and morals.

1782 Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. “He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters.” 53 (2106)

The Church recognizes the bounds to her authority, and faithfully teaches it.

 

[justin69]

Not sure if anyone said this, but I think the point of “invincible ignorance” isn’t just knowing things about the Catholic Church, like an academic study of it for example, but knowing that it is the true Church of Christ, the Church He established, the “only true Church” with the fulness of Truth, and still reject it.

IMO.

tell you bishop that if he keeps being greedy with all that money the catholic church has and doesn’t want to feed the poor. he will be one who regrets not serving god as he should. we need love in our hearts and in our souls , and I don’t see it happening .

 

[rcwitness]

tell you bishop that if he keeps being greedy with all that money the catholic church has and doesn’t want to feed the poor. he will be one who regrets not serving god as he should. we need love in our hearts and in our souls , and I don’t see it happening .

If Jesus said this to all Bishops, who are we to teach them?

Remember, Judas was one of the 12 until he died…but only until then

 

[Alizarin]

1782 Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. “He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters.” 53 (2106)

And that would seem to imply that no person (baptized or not) can be forcibly put under Roman authority. Freely accept it or freely reject it. There’s none of this, “you’re under it whether you know it or not…or whether you like it or not.”

 

[Jozefo]

Christian freedom resides in the Truth of Jesus Christ, the truth given to the Church by Christ, handed down by the Apostles and protected by the Holy Spirit. Freedom resides in our complete surrender to the Truth of Jesus Christ. As far as our personal autonomy is concerned, we have the freedom to conform our lives to the truth found in the Church Christ founded or we have the freedom to reject it and choose our own path. If you wish to choose your own path, to hold your opinions and judgment above that of Christ’s Church, the “pillar and foundation of truth”, you are certainly free to do so. Good luck with that.

I like to say that no one has the right to do wrong. But exercising free will without harming anyone else is clearly ok to do. It’s just a matter of recognizing the chain of authority, and knowing where the boundaries are.

 

[MJCamp]

where does it say in the bible that you have to be catholic. it doesn’t, why do the people on here have to be so vain .Romans 10:13 says, “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” Whosoever is anyone, including you. If you truly believe that you are a sinner, that the payment of your sin is Hell, that Jesus died and paid it for you, that he offers you eternal life as a free gift, and that all you have to do to receive the gift is to ask him, he will save you!

AMEN

What about the rest of the Bible? One line taken out of context and that’s it?
But I do agree that Jesus died to save us and so does every other Catholic. The Bible was actually put together by the Catholic Church to support the Catholic Church

 

[Jozefo]

And that would seem to imply that no person (baptized or not) can be forcibly put under Roman authority. Freely accept it or freely reject it. There’s none of this, “you’re under it whether you know it or not…or whether you like it or not.”

Yes, exactly. I find it hurtful when people impose authority that isn’t there. Impose is an interesting word. Look at #8 1. Compel to behave in a certain way; “Social relations impose courtesy”.[Wordnet] 2. Impose something unpleasant.[Wordnet] 3. Impose and collect.[Wordnet] 4. To lay on; to set or place; to put; to deposit.[Websters] 5. To lay as a charge, burden, tax, duty, obligation, command, penalty, etc.; to enjoin; to levy; to inflict; as, to impose a toll or tribute.[Websters] 6. To lay on, as the hands, in the religious rites of confirmation and ordination.[Websters] 7. To arrange in proper order on a table of stone or metal and lock up in a chase for printing; --said of columns or pages of type, forms, etc.[Websters] 8. To practice trick or deception.[Websters] 9. Base verb from the following inflections: imposing, imposed, imposes, imposer, imposers, imposingly and imposedly.[E

Without proper authorty, to impose becomes deceitful.*

 

[SteveVH]

where does it say in the bible that you have to be catholic. it doesn’t, why do the people on here have to be so vain .Romans 10:13 says, “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” Whosoever is anyone, including you. If you truly believe that you are a sinner, that the payment of your sin is Hell, that Jesus died and paid it for you, that he offers you eternal life as a free gift, and that all you have to do to receive the gift is to ask him, he will save you!

AMEN

Hmmm… Kind of makes you wonder why Jesus started a Church at all. If what you say is true he could have just handed out a short pamphlet and that would be that. The truth is that Jesus said a lot of things. He said unless you “eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood you will have no life in you”. Do you believe that? Paul tells us that it is not simply a matter of asking, but also a matter of persevering to the end. Can I ask for salvation and continue living my life in a sinful manner and still be saved? Do I have to confess my sins in order to be forgiven?

You quote Jesus as saying “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” Is it as simple as that? Is it not also true that he said "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ “And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you;” (Mt 7:21-23)

Those who wish to live according to an interpretation that suits their personal way of life in lieu of conforming their lives to the Truth found in and protected by the Church Christ founded, do so at their own peril.

 

[Alizarin]

Those who wish to live according to an interpretation that suits their personal way of life in lieu of conforming their lives to the Truth found in and protected by the Church Christ founded, do so at their own peril.

I don’t know why so many Catholics repeat that line, though I admit I did the same thing back in the day. If someone questioned something, it must be because of a personal way of life, I.e., some besetting sin, that they don’t want to give up. It was never a true problem with theology or philosophy.

It’s an easy way to shut down a debate, I see that.

 

[PRmerger]

First of all that makes no sense except in the context of a dictator, and I think the Pope would take issue with that comparison. Second of all, if that was true, then there is absolutely no point in formal conversion, is there?

Really? Do you not think that everyone is subject to Christ?

 

[PRmerger]

And my point is that threats of reporting for perceived misconduct just discourages us non-Catholics who hang out in the non-Catholic section from contributing, lest someone takes something the wrong way.

If you follow in the examples of lots of model non-Catholic posters, you will do fine.