I
Isaiah45_9
Guest
How is Salvation guaranteed?
Not all those who profess to be Catholics will be saved; just as not all who say: Lord, Lord - will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
- Status
Not all those who profess to be Catholics will be saved; just as not all who say: Lord, Lord - will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
I
Isaiah45_9
Guest
Dominus Iesus
*IV. UNICITY AND UNITY OF THE CHURCH
- The Lord Jesus, the only Saviour, did not only establish a simple community of disciples, but constituted the Church as a salvific mystery: he himself is in the Church and the Church is in him (cf. Jn 15:1ff.; Gal 3:28; Eph 4:15-16; Acts 9:5). Therefore, the fullness of Christ’s salvific mystery belongs also to the Church, inseparably united to her Lord. Indeed, Jesus Christ continues his presence and his work of salvation in the Church and by means of the Church (cf. Col 1:24-27),47 which is his body (cf. 1 Cor 12:12-13, 27; Col 1:18).48 And thus, just as the head and members of a living body, though not identical, are inseparable, so too Christ and the Church can neither be confused nor separated, and constitute a single “whole Christ”.49 This same inseparability is also expressed in the New Testament by the analogy of the Church as the Bride of Christ (cf. 2 Cor 11:2; Eph 5:25-29; Rev 21:2,9).50
The Catholic faithful are required to profess that there is an historical continuity — rooted in the apostolic succession53 — between the Church founded by Christ and the Catholic Church: “This is the single Church of Christ… which our Saviour, after his resurrection, entrusted to Peter’s pastoral care (cf. Jn 21:17), commissioning him and the other Apostles to extend and rule her (cf. Mt 28:18ff.), erected for all ages as ‘the pillar and mainstay of the truth’ (1 Tim 3:15). This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in [subsistit in] the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him”.54 With the expression subsistit in, the Second Vatican Council sought to harmonize two doctrinal statements: on the one hand, that the Church of Christ, despite the divisions which exist among Christians, continues to exist fully only in the Catholic Church, and on the other hand, that “outside of her structure, many elements can be found of sanctification and truth”,55 that is, in those Churches and ecclesial communities which are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church.56 But with respect to these, it needs to be stated that “they derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.57
- Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him.58 The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches.59 Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which, according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire Church.60
“The Christian faithful are therefore not permitted to imagine that the Church of Christ is nothing more than a collection — divided, yet in some way one — of Churches and ecclesial communities; nor are they free to hold that today the Church of Christ nowhere really exists, and must be considered only as a goal which all Churches and ecclesial communities must strive to reach”.64 In fact, “the elements of this already-given Church exist, joined together in their fullness in the Catholic Church and, without this fullness, in the other communities”.65 “Therefore, these separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.66
The lack of unity among Christians is certainly a wound for the Church; not in the sense that she is deprived of her unity, but “in that it hinders the complete fulfilment of her universality in history”.67*
I
Incomplete
Guest
I think the difference is in what bben said:
You may have studied Catholicism and know it well, but you don’t believe it is the truth. Once you accept that it is, if you reject it, you reject God because He is Truth. You are not at that place yet.
B
bzkoss236
Guest
This was actually my first thought, that you left out what qualifies as being a member?
Everything you said seems to be in accord with the Church’s teaching, but you’ve left out who is a member and how one becomes a member.
I of course, know the answer as it is clearly put in the CCC, but I’ll continue watching people’s responses.
G
GaryTaylor
Guest
Beside the Church, Baptism of desire, Martyrdom.
“That the place of baptism is sometimes supplied by suffering is supported by a substantial argument which the same blessed Cyprian draws from the circumstance of the thief, to whom, although not baptized, it was said, ‘Today you shall be with me in paradise’ [Luke 23:43]. Considering this over and over again, I find that not only suffering for the name of Christ can supply for that which is lacking by way of baptism, but even faith and conversion of heart * if, perhaps, because of the circumstances of the time, recourse cannot be had to the celebration of the mystery of baptism” (ibid., 4:22:29).
“When we speak of within and without in relation to the Church, it is the position of the heart that we must consider, not that of the body. . . . All who are within [the Church] in heart are saved in the unity of the ark [by baptism of desire]” (ibid., 5:28:39).
“Those who, though they have not received the washing of regeneration, die for the confession of Christ—it avails them just as much for the forgiveness of their sins as if they had been washed in the sacred font of baptism. For he that said, ‘If anyone is not reborn of water and the Spirit, he will not enter the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5], made an exception for them in that other statement in which he says no less generally, ‘Whoever confesses me before men, I too will confess him before my Father, who is in heaven’ [Matt. 10:32]” (The City of God 13:7 [A.D. 419]).
St Augustine*
R
rcwitness
Guest
This is true.
The question for all of us is,“What is God’s will for me?” This will bring us to all relative questions of salvation. Most Christian’s agree that some form of Church life and responsibility is required of us. The range of Church understanding in the intellect is great! Some see certain doctrines as that of men, and others see the same doctrine from God.
What does it mean to be a Catholic? It’s true that a person studying the written Gospels and believing them with a genuine faith that is completed by works is Catholic. They may not be in full communion, but someone who appears to be in full communion by attending Mass every wk and receiving sacraments may very well not be doing what God is calling them to do when they leave from them.
God knows our hearts. He knows what works are done in genuine faith and which faith has no good works.
G
GaryTaylor
Guest
St Augustine- “How many wolves within, how may sheep without”
M
MaryT777
Guest
Because it comes with earthly consequences that are difficult such as losing your job so to speak if you are a Protestant Pastor for instance. We have a special support group for such pastors.Why would one reject something they know and believe to be the truth?
Jon
If one is a woman Pastor they won’t be able to be as such in the form of a Priest as a Catholic. Currently a woman such as my friend who converted who was a Presbyterian elder in her church, will not be an elder in the Catholic Church. We don’t have the same polity so we don’t have the same type of role as an elder.
People can lose spouses, family, friends, Church friends etc if they convert to Catholicism.
The spirit is willing but the Flesh can be weak.
They will state they have grained a far greater treasure, the fullness of truth in the Church but it can come with a difficult road and price for some.
Mary.
B
bzkoss236
Guest
What do you think is happening when we sin? We are rejecting the truth about what is good that we know and believe to be good.Why would one reject something they know and believe to be the truth?
Jon
I
Incomplete
Guest
Because they don’t want to live the life that Truth implies.Why would one reject something they know and believe to be the truth?
Jon
M
MaryT777
Guest
Because they don’t want to live the life that Truth implies.
Yes, this is the weakness of our fallen condition, even for the regenerate? For some reason I see this as different than what we are talking about. If I am Lutheran, and come to recognize or discern that the RCC is the fullness of truth, but because of mitigating factors, I decide to remain Lutheran, I don’t see that as the same as the sin we commit because of our sinful state.
Jon
R
rcwitness
Guest
Baptism “by desire” implies one would receive baptism if able
Are you suggesting some non-Cats really desire to be Catholic but are restricted?
Maybe if you use “restricted” in a very broad sense
…but that would be different than the restrictions in the meaning of “baptism of desire”…no?Well, that’s a rejection of grace, certainly. But again, I’m not sure this is the same as what the thread implies.
Jon
G
GaryTaylor
Guest
Amen, Has a ring of dire finality to it though, I would opt for the A-Plan. 
I
Incomplete
Guest
I think (I’m not sure) the OP is implying we must be formal members of the Church, though the Church itself does not teach this. My responses were just an answer to your specific questions.
Probably. Somewhat.Baptism “by desire” implies one would receive baptism if able
Are you suggesting some non-Cats really desire to be Catholic but are restricted?
Maybe if you use “restricted” in a very broad sense
Jon
- Status