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Okay, Jon…I believe you. You’re not close to becoming Roman Catholic. No, siree…
Jon
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Right. Because we need a few folks to remain outside the Catholic Church so they can tell others about how good Catholicism is with more credibility. Seriously?
I figured that was the issue…the last issue…
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Jozefo
Guest
I’m glad to hear that. You know, without the Eucharist, the churches would be stuck in an untenable position. The sin/debt owed to God could never be offset. The people would be reduced to the same position as they held before Christ’s sacrifice. Without the Eucharist, Christ’s coming is rendered moot.I don’t think we’d disagree regarding the importance of the Eucharist.
Jon
That’s why legitimate authority is important. It makes His presence in the world real, and brings us the ability to have our sin/debts wiped out. And if any remain after our temporal demise, Purgatory is bankruptcy court.
Now here’s a thought I have, without anything other than my imagination to support it, but I think today’s modern money system is actually modeled after the Eucharist. Occam’s razor says this must be the case, because it lines up exactly, to a tee.
In fact, while I admittedly don’t have documentation, I remember at one point hearing or reading that Pope JP II was a strong proponent of corporate unity. So, yeah, seriously.
But it isn’t about telling others how good you guys are (you guys can do that
). Its about holding leadership accountable to Christ’s call, and really, to the call of the confessions. I have had conversations with members of our dialogue team, specifically about the JDDJ, and other issues, as an example.For me, in many ways it is, because if that issue is resolved, then there really are no other issues unrelated to that one.
Jon
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Gorgias
Guest
Then if distinctions won’t matter there, don’t insist on labels; doing so only serves to aggravate people. It doesn’t strike you as arrogant to say “everyone will be Catholic in heaven” to non-Catholics? That’s how it comes off (at least, to my ears). In heaven, everyone will be a member of the Church of Christ. Period.
Everyone already is (‘extra ecclesiam’, right?), so your assertion here doesn’t have any real explicative power, does it? It’s like saying that every saint in heaven will be human.
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Gorgias
Guest
Jon,
I’m confused by what you’re asserting here. To assert that there is the presence of the Lord in a Lutheran Lord’s Supper is not the same as asserting that the Lutheran Lord’s Supper is a valid Eucharist. Is that what you’re trying to say here?
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cheezey
Guest
You may have a point, though knowing Randy he is not trying to be arrogant. Also, he knows me, and sees my profile (Evangelical Catholic) and so…
Well, I think he was stating the obvious, from a Catholic POV. Sometimes one has to.Everyone already is (‘extra ecclesiam’, right?), so your assertion here doesn’t have any real explicative power, does it? It’s like saying that every saint in heaven will be human.
Gorgias, I truly value and appreciate your charity, and your obvious desire that we be charitable to one another. Thank you.
Jon
I’m not asserting anything with the quote. The good Cardinal is asserting at least the possibility that when I receive a Lutheran Eucharist, I am receiving "the salvation-granting presence of the Lord". He uses the words “the” (as opposed to “a”), and salvation-granting. That is pretty strong language from a Catholic. Yes?
As a Lutheran, regardless of what Cardinal Ratzinger says, I would absolutely assert that a Lutheran Eucharist is valid, and it is truly the real and substantial body and blood of Christ.
Jon
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Le_Cracquere
Guest
Totally agree. But what precisely “the Church” IS, is exactly the issue at hand in my example. Once you’re persuaded that a church is the Church, everything else follows … including what faith ought to point towards. But if one can’t satisfactorily figure that much out, then your statement, though 100% correct, is kind of begging the question.
That it is. And if our hypothetical Protestant were certain that the Catholic Church were what it claims to be, and thus able by definition to be correct about such matters, that’d be all there was to it. But as I was trying to show, one can be attracted to the Church without being automatically able to accept its self-definition.
Depending on who you are, it might be a stimulating experience to become a Catholic even if you don’t actually believe in it, or in its claims. But a man of integrity might consider that a shoddy–even sinful–reason to join a church.
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cerad2
Guest
Was Jesus a Catholic? Case closed.
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Alizarin
Guest
Then what’s the advantage to being Catholic, if non-Catholics can get to heaven, too?
No, He was a Jew…
One. I wasn’t arguing the number, I was arguing whether or not there’s a case for the Mystical Body and membership in it (which was the issue you brought up in the OP). Paul uses Jesus’ body as a metaphor regarding spiritual gifts and Jesus Himself talks of it in the context of the Last Supper.
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fallow_spirit
Guest
We know where the Church is but we don’t know where she isn’t. Other Christians (like myself for instance) are imperfectly united to the Church through our baptism. But of course it all as to do with knowledge, if a person knows it’s true then rejects it, they won’t be in heaven (they’d also be very dishonest with themselves), but those who don’t, there’s hope for them. Maybe not a certainty that they’ll be in heaven, but there is hope.
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epan
Guest
Since, every other religion makes a similar claim, then your burden is to disprove all of them. Simply declaring your own religion to be the only legitimate one does absolutely nothing to establish it as such. You must prove that no other religion holds that position of legitimacy. Failing that, then you are in the position of agreeing that while your religion may be legitimate, but that also there are other legitimate religions.
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Caylee
Guest
God loves all of us. Nobody are in hell forever.
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Alizarin
Guest
George Macdonald agreed with you:
*I believe that justice and mercy are simply one and the same thing. * such is the mercy of God that he will hold his children in the consuming fire of his distance until they pay the uttermost farthing, until they drop the purse of selfishness with all the dross that is in it, and rush home to the Father and the Son, and the many brethren, rush inside the center of the life-giving fire whose outer circles burn. **
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Church_Militant
Guest
Really? And where do you find find that in the Bible? Oh wait…you don’t. Let’s have a look at some sources that can correct our thinking on this.
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bzkoss236
Guest
The fullness of Truth. If Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, then if one better knows the Truth, then they too know Christ better, yes? So, if the Catholic Church maintains the fullness of Truth here on earth, then by coming into the fullness of Truth, then they are coming into the fullness of Christ.
Source? Because Scripture and Church belief throughout history would seem to disagree with you. And I’d take the word of those closest to Christ more than one man nearly 2000 years later.
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MaryT777
Guest
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