To Be in Heaven, You Must Be Catholic

[steido01]

JonNC, do you get down on your knees to adore and worship your Lutheran Eucharistic bread and blood?

Indeed, we Lutherans do practice adoration when receiving the Sacrament. We typically kneel at the altar when receive; “drive-through” style communion is not so common in Lutheran churches as it is in Roman Catholic parishes.

Has there been any confirmed miracles regarding the Lutheran Eucharist?

Isn’t the purpose of a Eucharistic miracle to remind doubting priests of Christ’s Real Presence? If that’s so, then why would a Lutheran -who professes the Real Presence- ever require one?

Does your Lutheran Church offer Eucharistic Adoration?

Every time we kneel for reception of the Sacrament. The Wiki actually isn’t far off: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucharistic_adoration#Lutherans

After all who received your Lutheran Eucharist, at your church, the remaining Eucharist how and where is it stored?

I’ve addressed this in several other threads. See here, and be educated: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11119184&postcount=69

Jon, do you believe you have to be in a State of Grace before eating the Lutheran Eucharist?

We practice corporate Confession near the beginning of our Divine Service to prepare for the Lord’s Supper.

Are you willing to be martyr for the Lutheran Eucharist?

Ufam Tobie

Yes, and history shows that I wouldn’t be the first Lutheran to do so. Let’s be real - if I weren’t willing, I’d cave to your triumphalist rhetoric. Why do you find it difficult to acknowledge what Cardinal Ratzinger himself noted?

 

[ffg]

Nope.

I like the detail.

I’ll bite - Why?

Would you agree that everyone in Heaven is on the same page theologically speaking regardless of how they identified themselves on earth?

 

[Doxiemom]

So then you are saying a person can not accept Christ and still be in heaven?

I mean heaven is not a place where only those baptized in the catholic faith will be in eternity.

Heaven will be filled with all kinds of Christians and we even may like each other then!

I do accept that true Torah jews , the remnant God has set aside to fulfill a future prophecy, are covered under the Abrahamic Covenent. They will enter heaven and see Jesus as messiah, glory to God.

Others, who seek the Light, never having been given the Word, I believe will be given mercy and behold Jesus and if they accept they too will enter. I think your catachsim speaks of something along these lines.

 

[ffg]

I mean heaven is not a place where only those baptized in the catholic faith will be in eternity.

This is not the topic. It’s those already in Heaven.

If it hasn’t been made clear already, it’s quite understood and taught that one does not have to be Catholic on earth to get to Heaven.

However, it should be cautioned, that though God’s mercy is great and impossible to predict or understand, there are going to be people who stand in judgement and can’t say they didn’t know He had a Church on earth.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Indeed, we Lutherans do practice adoration when receiving the Sacrament. We typically kneel at the altar when receive; “drive-through” style communion is not so common in Lutheran churches as it is in Roman Catholic parishes.

Perhaps if you had a billion people to distribute communion to each Sunday, you’d have a faster method. :dancing:

 

[tskrobacz]

Provocative title, eh?

I hoped to get your attention, because I’m floating this argument which I put together this morning.

1. Jesus only has one body.
2. To be in heaven, one must be a member of the body of Christ
3. The body of Christ is the Church.
4. The Church instituted by Christ has a name – the Catholic Church.
   Therefore, to be in heaven, one must be a member of the Catholic Church.

I anticipate some possible objection to 1 and much rejection to 4, but let’s see how it unfolds.

I look forward to reading your thoughts for and against.

Why do you need to think in such a divisive manner? There is the institutional church and there is the mystical body of Christ…many “non-Catholics” are more substantially part of the latter than those that are substantially part of the former…the church has never declared a single person to be excluded from heaven, and nor should we.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I mean heaven is not a place where only those baptized in the catholic faith will be in eternity.

Heaven will be filled with all kinds of Christians and we even may like each other then!

Correct. That is what we have been discussing.

To be saved, it is absolutely necessary to be in some communion with the Catholic Church.
To be saved, it is normatively necessary to be in formal communion with the Catholic Church.
However, to be saved, it is not absolutely necessary to be in formal communion with the Catholic Church.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Why do you need to think in such a divisive manner? There is the institutional church and there is the mystical body of Christ…many “non-Catholics” are more substantially part of the latter than those that are substantially part of the former…the church has never declared a single person to be excluded from heaven, and nor should we.

When non-Catholics go to the mall to evangelize, they are quick to tell non-Christians that they need to accept Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior or they will go to hell. That is part of the offense of the gospel.

Catholics are simply offending a slightly larger group of people by insisting that the rest of you Christians would be better of as Catholics.

 

[tskrobacz]

When non-Catholics go to the mall to evangelize, they are quick to tell non-Christians that they need to accept Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior or they will go to hell. That is part of the offense of the gospel.

Catholics are simply offending a slightly larger group of people by insisting that the rest of you Christians would be better of as Catholics.

It is precisely the thinking that ours is a gospel of “offense” or condemnation that dissuades many from even considering becoming Catholic. That is not the Gospel.

 

[Randy_Carson]

It is precisely the thinking that ours is a gospel of “offense” or condemnation that dissuades many from even considering becoming Catholic. That is not the Gospel.

The gospel is the message that Jesus Christ died and rose for our sins so that we may be saved.

You need a savior.

• Why?

Because you are a sinner.

• How rude!

 

[MaryT777]

Perhaps if you had a billion people to distribute communion to each Sunday, you’d have a faster method. :dancing:

 

[sw85]

The gospel is the message that Jesus Christ died and rose for our sins so that we may be saved.

You need a savior.

• Why?

Because you are a sinner.

• How rude!

Yeah, the Pelagianism in this thread is just appalling.

 

[PRmerger]

It is precisely the thinking that ours is a gospel of “offense” or condemnation that dissuades many from even considering becoming Catholic.

The same could be said for Christianity. By evangelizing to Muslims, Jews, Baha’is, etc and telling them that they must accept Jesus, they may feel it is a gospel of “offense” or condemnation that may dissuade them from even considering becoming Christian.

 

[benjohnson]

Perhaps if you had a billion people to distribute communion to each Sunday, you’d have a faster method. :dancing:

The kneeling at a Lutheran does prolong communion - this is a good thing as this is where we do our version of Eucharistic Adoration.

Spending 30 minutes in church hearing the gentle truth of “Body of Christ, broken for you” and “Blood of Christ, shed for you” is good for the soul. Frankly, it’s the more important thing in church.

 

[tskrobacz]

The same could be said for Christianity. By evangelizing to Muslims, Jews, Baha’is, etc and telling them that they must accept Jesus, they may feel it is a gospel of “offense” or condemnation that may dissuade them from even considering becoming Christian.

That which is true is, by definition, true everywhere, always and for all people. Any gospel of exclusion or “offense” is very early stage spirituality, at best.

 

[sw85]

Why do you need to think in such a divisive manner? There is the institutional church and there is the mystical body of Christ…many “non-Catholics” are more substantially part of the latter than those that are substantially part of the former…the church has never declared a single person to be excluded from heaven, and nor should we.

But, the society structured with hierarchical organs and the Mystical Body of Christ, are not to be considered as two realities, nor are the visible assembly and the spiritual community, nor the earthly Church and the Church enriched with heavenly things;* rather they form one complex reality which coalesces from a divine and a human element.**(10*) For this reason, by no weak analogy, it is compared to the mystery of the incarnate Word. As the assumed nature inseparably united to Him, serves the divine Word as a living organ of salvation, so, in a similar way, does the visible social structure of the Church serve the Spirit of Christ, who vivifies it, in the building up of the body.(73) (11*)*

–Lumen Gentium, 8​

 

[sw85]

This whole thread demonstrates how almost completely impossible it is to evangelize effectively in a culture that does not intuit the “bad news” which the Gospel proposes to remedy.

 

[tskrobacz]

But, the society structured with hierarchical organs and the Mystical Body of Christ, are not to be considered as two realities, nor are the visible assembly and the spiritual community, nor the earthly Church and the Church enriched with heavenly things;** rather they form one complex reality which coalesces from a divine and a human element.**(10*) For this reason, by no weak analogy, it is compared to the mystery of the incarnate Word. As the assumed nature inseparably united to Him, serves the divine Word as a living organ of salvation, so, in a similar way, does the visible social structure of the Church serve the Spirit of Christ, who vivifies it, in the building up of the body.(73) (11*)

–Lumen Gentium, 8​

“The church is precisely the state of communion of the whole world” - St. Augustine

“The body of the church is constituted by the people who existed from the beginning of the world until now.” - St. Thomas Aquinas

“Wherever there is faith, hope, and charity, there is church and there is God.” - Fr. Richard Rohr

 

[steido01]

Indeed, we Lutherans do practice adoration when receiving the Sacrament. We typically kneel at the altar when receive; “drive-through” style communion is not so common in Lutheran churches as it is in Roman Catholic parishes.

Perhaps if you had a billion people to distribute communion to each Sunday, you’d have a faster method. :dancing:

Surely you jest.

 

[sw85]

“The church is precisely the state of communion of the whole world” - St. Augustine

“The body of the church is constituted by the people who existed from the beginning of the world until now.” - St. Thomas Aquinas

“Wherever there is faith, hope, and charity, there is church and there is God.” - Fr. Richard Rohr

Have you read either St. Augustine or St. Thomas Aquinas? Or did you just pull those first two quotes out of context from a book by the author of the third?

In fact both Augustine and Aquinas were of the opinion that the vast majority of people went to Hell – and they were consistent in this position with nearly all of the Church fathers. So perhaps they are bad translations, or plucked from context, or using “church” in a sense distinct from that which is meaningful here.