To Be in Heaven, You Must Be Catholic

[MaryT777]

Surely you jest.

The point that’s been missed is we don’t need to compare how long Holy Communion
takes in this Church or that to determine who is “more Holy” it misses the entire point.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Surely you jest.

Distribution of the Holy Communion can take forever in some Lutheran churches. When my kids were very young, we would need to find diversions [coloring books, toys] to keep them satisfied.

Adoration of the Holy Body/ Holy Blood occurs at several times during Mass. At the consecration and elevation the pastor and servers bow deeply or genuflect while we kneel in the pews or/ and cross ourselves. At the end of the Eucharistic prayer, the chalice and large Host are again elevated with the host held over the chalice.

Also found this on Wikipedia:

In the many Lutheran churches where it is practiced, the elevation may take place both immediately after the consecration of the elements or during the pax. This elevation gives opportunity to adore the real presence of Christ by either bowing deeply at the waist or genuflecting. The elements may also be elevated following the chanting of the Lord’s Prayer, by which the celebrant may use the elements to make the sign of the cross over the congregation.

 

[tskrobacz]

Have you read either St. Augustine or St. Thomas Aquinas? Or did you just pull those first two quotes out of context from a book by the author of the third?

In fact both Augustine and Aquinas were of the opinion that the vast majority of people went to Hell – and they were consistent in this position with nearly all of the Church fathers. So perhaps they are bad translations, or plucked from context, or using “church” in a sense distinct from that which is meaningful here.

Actually their use of church (Augustine, Aquinas and Rohr) is the only one that is meaningful. Any tribal or club mentality towards who is “in” vs “out” is not interesting or productive.

 

[ffg]

The kneeling at a Lutheran does prolong communion - this is a good thing as this is where we do our version of Eucharistic Adoration.

Spending 30 minutes in church hearing the gentle truth of “Body of Christ, broken for you” and “Blood of Christ, shed for you” is good for the soul. Frankly, it’s the more important thing in church.

We have and use a kneeling rail at our Church. It’s neat to have. I think it actually speeds up communion as the time in between delivery is a sidestep for the priest rather than a few steps for the receiver and possibly a bow or kneel. The pre-reception honor effort by the receiver is in place or complete when the priest is ready for delivery.

Though with it, I’m fighting the babe from wanting to get stuck in it, or crawling through it. Without it, I’m quite concious of the kid’s reach and quickness, when the priest may not be in tune with the kid’s focus.

 

[Randy_Carson]

The kneeling at a Lutheran does prolong communion - this is a good thing as this is where we do our version of Eucharistic Adoration.

Spending 30 minutes in church hearing the gentle truth of “Body of Christ, broken for you” and “Blood of Christ, shed for you” is good for the soul. Frankly, it’s the more important thing in church.

All kidding aside, I could go for a different approach - with the communion rail and the communicants never touching the host. But that’s just me.

 

[ffg]

Actually their use of church (Augustine, Aquinas and Rohr) is the only one that is meaningful. Any tribal or club mentality towards who is “in” vs “out” is not interesting or productive.

I want EVERYBODY in, but there is reality vs my desire.

Reality of Sin causes the need to discuss subject matter that might be hard to deal with as we learn about our true selves.

No Catholic should be teaching that ONLY Catholics get into heaven. It is not a teaching of the CC. It’s also not the subject of this thread.

However, if the goal is to understand life, understand why we are here, and be as close to Truth (if there is one) as possible, one would only hope to find the location of that Truth. It’s not in more places than 1, by definition.

We can put our minds together and find it, or maybe it’s out there in the open waiting to be discovered and we are searching under rocks when it’s on the rock right in front of us.

 

[MaryT777]

All kidding aside, I could go for a different approach - with the communion rail and the communicants never touching the host. But that’s just me.

Many of the elderly at Daily Mass appreciate the ability to stand and receive Holy Communion. They talk about how it’s hard for them to kneel now at the kneelers and awkward to try and stand when others are kneeling.

Mary.

 

[chimo]

Provocative title, eh?

I hoped to get your attention, because I’m floating this argument which I put together this morning.

1. Jesus only has one body.
2. To be in heaven, one must be a member of the body of Christ
3. The body of Christ is the Church.
4. The Church instituted by Christ has a name – the Catholic Church.
   Therefore, to be in heaven, one must be a member of the Catholic Church.

I anticipate some possible objection to 1 and much rejection to 4, but let’s see how it unfolds.

I look forward to reading your thoughts for and against.

It will be nice if heaven had some Catholics but I am sure there is a lot more than just Catholics in heaven. One does not need to be Catholic if someone is to enter heaven. Paul talks about this when he says the believer can sanctify the unbeliever. God can use all of our Holy Communions in both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches to give Graces for the rest of the planet. God is not bound only to the Church of Rome. He has other means by which He can channel His Graces. One of those chief means is His Orthodox Church. The Orthodox Church has all the Sacramental power to transform her own as well as the world as well. I find it surprising that in this day the Catholic and the Orthodox disagree on who is the Church. Both make claims by they do not consider the other as just as important as what each one is. I believe in the fullness of what the Catholic Church is as well in the fullness of what the Orthodox Church is. I cannot say that the Church which I am baptised into (The Orthodox Church) has a higher claim than Rome nor can I say the Church of Rome has this higher claim. I can only say that yes both the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church have inherited this claim to be the Church that has all the Sacramental power that is necessary to give out the Holy Spirit. This claim however can also include those Churches who have the all the Sacraments by which can be celebrated. God is not bound to any particular Church. The Church however is bound to Him. I wish we would get that right. No one Church can lay claim to be the Church. This claim belongs to God and to His Son Jesus Christ who has the right to say who is the Church and who is not. The fact is Jesus sees the Catholic and Orthodox Churches as part of Himself as equal as you can be. It is because of our own human failure and weakness that prevents us from admitting this truth or even more closely because of our own fears. I hope one day these fears that come from our own weaknesses in admitting the truth will bring to light what really exists in our Church and that is we are all brothers and sisters of the same family. It takes guts to really admit the truth. If it is not the truth then I presume more time is necessary before we can come to acknowledge it.

 

[benjohnson]

Many of the elderly at Daily Mass appreciate the ability to stand and receive Holy Communion. They talk about how it’s hard for them to kneel now at the kneelers and awkward to try and stand when others are kneeling.

Mary.

The elderly and sick at our church rest their hands on the rail - in the elderly we can see a lifetime of service in their weary body, and the sick are profoundly kneeling for the Lord, just not the way the healthy and young do.

It really isn’t an issue!

 

[ffg]

The fact is Jesus sees the Catholic and Orthodox Churches as part of Himself as equal as you can be.

Every human being is of equal value. Jesus died for All.

Now, how do we get every human being to understand this in context of ALL other teachings of Jesus? If it’s from the mouth of God, every instruction, every drip of information is important.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

The elderly and sick at our church rest their hands on the rail - in the elderly we can see a lifetime of service in their weary body, and the sick are profoundly kneeling for the Lord, just not the way the healthy and young do.

It really isn’t an issue!

I think in just about every Lutheran church that those unable to come forward at the altar rail are given the Sacrament in the pew.

 

[ffg]

I think in just about every Lutheran church that those unable to come forward at the altar rail are given the Sacrament in the pew.

Similar in the CC. Even have little carrying things for sick people at home.

When my wife was giving birth to our first, we had a communion service in the hospital recovery room right after the action.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Similar in the CC. Even have little carrying things for sick people at home.

When my wife was giving birth to our first, we had a communion service in the hospital recovery room right after the action.

Yes, after Mass either the clergy or eucharistic ministers take the Sacrament to hospitals/ nursing homes. I have participated in holy Communion in hospitals many times when my parents/ relatives were sick; it is especially significant to those suffering or near death.

 

[MaryT777]

Similar in the CC. Even have little carrying things for sick people at home.

When my wife was giving birth to our first, we had a communion service in the hospital recovery room right after the action.

Yes we have several that cannot walk that receive in the Pew.
Mary.

 

[chimo]

Every human being is of equal value. Jesus died for All.

Now, how do we get every human being to understand this in context of other teachings of Jesus? If it’s from the mouth of God, every instruction, every drip of information is important.

I was not referring to the equality of every human. You have not understood me at all. In the Body of Christ which is the Church is where Orthodox and Catholic are equal. Try to understand that our two Churches have no favoritism in one or the other as many believe it to be so. That was my point. God sees us as equals. If then what I say is true than why do Catholics argue with Orthodox and Orthodox argue with Catholics. This arguing must make Jesus shrink because it occurs within His Body. How can the world ever know the truth if we just keep harping at each other? Jesus may have died for all but He is having a very difficult time to make this available to the rest of the world when the Church is often divided to recognize each other as what they truly are in their relationship to Jesus.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I was not referring to the equality of every human. You have not understood me at all. In the Body of Christ which is the Church is where Orthodox and Catholic are equal. Try to understand that our two Churches have no favoritism in one or the other as many believe it to be so. That was my point. God sees us as equals. If then what I say is true than why do Catholics argue with Orthodox and Orthodox argue with Catholics. This arguing must make Jesus shrink because it occurs within His Body. How can the world ever know the truth if we just keep harping at each other? Jesus may have died for all but He is having a very difficult time to make this available to the rest of the world when the Church is often divided to recognize each other as what they truly are in their relationship to Jesus.

Nice sentiments…wonderful, truly.

But it remains a sad fact of history that the Orthodox separated themselves from Peter whom Jesus established as the head of his Church.

So, equal? No…I can’t see it.

 

[ffg]

I was not referring to the equality of every human. You have not understood me at all. In the Body of Christ which is the Church is where Orthodox and Catholic are equal. Try to understand that our two Churches have no favoritism in one or the other as many believe it to be so. That was my point. God sees us as equals. If then what I say is true than why do Catholics argue with Orthodox and Orthodox argue with Catholics. This arguing must make Jesus shrink because it occurs within His Body. How can the world ever know the truth if we just keep harping at each other? Jesus may have died for all but He is having a very difficult time to make this available to the rest of the world when the Church is often divided to recognize each other as what they truly are in their relationship to Jesus.

Thanks for the reply. To be fair, you didn’t really understand the topic, unless I have been wrong this whole time (not the first, or going to the last time - thinking it’s about those in heaven already).

I guess, I would just say, do you have any siblings?

Humans are not perfect and humans are running the joint.

We’re not going to be pure until Heaven, if we are so blessed.

Expect chaos in a world full of sinners!

The great thing about this stuff is that it is the ultimate ‘do what I say, not what I do’.

We can all try to be the best in light of the information available to us. We’re not going to be able to appear perfect though, so if we wait until we appear perfect to share the Good News, we are wasting the short time we have to share.

 

[sw85]

Actually their use of church (Augustine, Aquinas and Rohr) is the only one that is meaningful. Any tribal or club mentality towards who is “in” vs “out” is not interesting or productive.

So no, you haven’t read either of them?

What you find “interesting” or “productive” is frankly irrelevant to (a) what the Church actually teaches or (b) what Augustine or Aquinas actually said.

As I’ve said it is well known that both men were of the opinion that the vast majority of people, Catholics included, are damned. So clearly you are taking their quotes out of context, perhaps because you did not read the original source material but are relying on a translation ripped from its context by a dissident universalist priest.

 

[tskrobacz]

So no, you haven’t read either of them?

What you find “interesting” or “productive” is frankly irrelevant to (a) what the Church actually teaches or (b) what Augustine or Aquinas actually said.

As I’ve said it is well known that both men were of the opinion that the vast majority of people, Catholics included, are damned. So clearly you are taking their quotes out of context, perhaps because you did not read the original source material but are relying on a translation ripped from its context by a dissident universalist priest.

Thank you for so clearly affirming my point (even if in the negative)…and yes, I have read Aquinas, Augustine, St. John of the Cross, Merton, Keating, the CCC and many others.

 

[tskrobacz]

I want EVERYBODY in, but there is reality vs my desire.

Reality of Sin causes the need to discuss subject matter that might be hard to deal with as we learn about our true selves.

No Catholic should be teaching that ONLY Catholics get into heaven. It is not a teaching of the CC. It’s also not the subject of this thread.

However, if the goal is to understand life, understand why we are here, and be as close to Truth (if there is one) as possible, one would only hope to find the location of that Truth. It’s not in more places than 1, by definition.

We can put our minds together and find it, or maybe it’s out there in the open waiting to be discovered and we are searching under rocks when it’s on the rock right in front of us.

Everybody is already “in”…there is no “outside of Christ”…we are all in at our deepest self. It is an illusion that any one of us, regardless of our practice, is capable of holding the ENTIRE truth. Any finite notion of God, including the full body of teaching of the Church, is infinitely less than God. God’s will for us is himself (Love)…spend you life learning to Love instead of religious banterings that are designed to create devision by the mere assumption that a single and full truth can be known…get over it.