To Be in Heaven, You Must Be Catholic

[clem456]

Everybody is already “in”…there is no “outside of Christ”…we are all in at our deepest self. It is an illusion that any one of us, regardless of our practice, is capable of holding the ENTIRE truth. Any finite notion of God, including the full body of teaching of the Church, is infinitely less than God. God’s will for us is himself (Love)…spend you life learning to Love instead of religious banterings that are designed to create devision by the mere assumption that a single and full truth can be known…get over it.

I have three thoughts about everybody being “already in”:

free will
free will, and
free will.

The God who chooses to love us perfectly cannot force himself on us. That is not love. He allows us free choice. We must respond with a free choice. It’s a relationship. Think about how you relate in love to your spouse, your children, friends.
The opposite is tyranny, rape.

 

[JonNC]

Perhaps if you had a billion people to distribute communion to each Sunday, you’d have a faster method. :dancing:

I am way behind on this thread. Sorry.

You make a good point. I was in a rather large parish earlier this year, where the method of distribution was walk up - receive - walk back, instead of the traditional “table” approach which is typical in Lutheran parishes. I actually noticed a few genuflect just before receiving.

Jon

 

[tskrobacz]

I have three thoughts about everybody being “already in”:

free will
free will, and
free will.

The God who chooses to love us perfectly cannot force himself on us. That is not love. He allows us free choice. We must respond with a free choice. It’s a relationship. Think about how you relate in love to your spouse, your children, friends.
The opposite is tyranny, rape.

Your free will is the will to say “yes” or “no” to the Love that is your essence and your origin. Saying “no” does not change the fact that Love is and remains who you are at your deepest self.

 

[JonNC]

Many of the elderly at Daily Mass appreciate the ability to stand and receive Holy Communion. They talk about how it’s hard for them to kneel now at the kneelers and awkward to try and stand when others are kneeling.

Mary.

Since my knee replacements, I cannot kneel, or genuflect. Instead, I bow at the waist, and inwardly kneel in His presence.

Jon

 

[ffg]

Everybody is already “in”…there is no “outside of Christ”…we are all in at our deepest self. It is an illusion that any one of us, regardless of our practice, is capable of holding the ENTIRE truth. Any finite notion of God, including the full body of teaching of the Church, is infinitely less than God. God’s will for us is himself (Love)…spend you life learning to Love instead of religious banterings that are designed to create devision by the mere assumption that a single and full truth can be known…get over it.

Your confidence is commendable.

Your advice is not against desired practice as we are to love. But as we can see in your emotion, we are not perfect and Love is not always the intention of our communication.

We are Human, we sin, we have error.

Whether it took the ressurection, water into wine, or no miracle to believe in Jesus and who He Is, we must not simply end there and look past all the info between the pages.

 

[JonNC]

=ufamtobie;11117083]JonNC, do you get down on your knees to adore and worship your Lutheran Eucharistic bread and blood?
I cannot, since my knee replacements, but I do bow and inwardly kneel just prior to receiving His body and blood.

Has there been any confirmed miracles regarding the Lutheran Eucharist?

Every Eucharist is a miracle. The ones you speak of, while I do not reject them out of hand, are meant to strengthen the faith of a wavering priest or people.

Does your Lutheran Church offer Eucharistic Adoration?

Lutherans typically practice adoration during the sacramental act, in response to Christ’s command that we eat and drink. There are a small number of Lutheran parishes that offer other opportunities for Eucharistic Adoration.

After all who received your Lutheran Eucharist, at your church, the remaining Eucharist how and where is it stored?

Already answered.

Jon, do you believe you have to be in a State of Grace before eating the Lutheran Eucharist?

I will not receive without having confessed, and received absolution, usually during the corporate confession at the beginning of worship. Our understanding of mortal and venial sins are somewhat different.

Are you willing to be martyr for the Lutheran Eucharist?

By the strength and power of the Holy Spirit, yes.

Jon

 

[clem456]

This is interesting from the Summa

Iª q. 23 a. 7 co.

…

Concerning the number of all the predestined, some say that so many men will be saved as angels fell; some, so many as there were angels left; others, as many as the number of angels created by God. It is, however, better to say that, “to God alone is known the number for whom is reserved eternal happiness [From the ‘secret’ prayer of the missal, ‘pro vivis et defunctis.’]”

 

[clem456]

Your free will is the will to say “yes” or “no” to the Love that is your essence and your origin. Saying “no” does not change the fact that Love is and remains who you are at your deepest self.

I’m having trouble making sense of that.
Are you married?
If you are, you would like your love for your spouse to be reciprocal. That requires a free choice on the part of both. A lover that does not give you his/her free choice is a doll, not a human being.
Have you ever been rejected, mistreated or abused by someone you love? Is the person who mistreats you loving you?

 

[Randy_Carson]

“If one is a Christian at all, one is in some kind of union with the Church, the Body of Christ. This is why the Church teaches and has always taught that ‘outside the Church, there is no salvation.’ … To talk about salvation “outside the Church” is like talking about swimming outside the water.” – Mark Shea

 

[tskrobacz]

I’m having trouble making sense of that.
Are you married?
If you are, you would like your love for your spouse to be reciprocal. That requires a free choice on the part of both. A lover that does not give you his/her free choice is a doll, not a human being.
Have you ever been rejected, mistreated or abused by someone you love? Is the person who mistreats you loving you?

Saying no to Love is not reciprocating the Love that is your Origin…it is the very notion of Sin (separation from that Love). Thus we have the ability to make amends (and say Yes) when we awaken to the ways in which we are not loving in our relationships with each other and with our notion of God (whatever that may be).

 

[JonNC]

“If one is a Christian at all, one is in some kind of union with the Church, the Body of Christ. This is why the Church teaches and has always taught that ‘outside the Church, there is no salvation.’ … To talk about salvation “outside the Church” is like talking about swimming outside the water.” – Mark Shea

And yet, as I recall from recent Catholic/Lutheran dialogue, we can pray and hope for the salvation of those outside the Church (our varying definitions of Church aside for the moment).

Jon

 

[PRmerger]

That which is true is, by definition, true everywhere, always and for all people. Any gospel of exclusion or “offense” is very early stage spirituality, at best.

I hope you are able to see the inconsistency in your position, tsk.

You seem to have no objection to excluding others from heaven–those who have not called on the name of Jesus…

So why do you reserve for yourself this right, while objecting to Catholicism for following this same paradigm?

 

[PRmerger]

So perhaps they are bad translations, or plucked from context, or using “church” in a sense distinct from that which is meaningful here.

Yes–and since both of these great men lived in a time when the ONLY Christian Church was the Catholic Church, these quotes could hardly be claimed by Protestants as saying, “See? We are included in the Church by Augustine and Aquinas!”

 

[PRmerger]

Actually their use of church (Augustine, Aquinas and Rohr) is the only one that is meaningful. Any tribal or club mentality towards who is “in” vs “out” is not interesting or productive.

I think it’s time to pull out one of my favorite quotes by St. Augustine about those who want to claim to be part of the Catholic Church:

“And so, lastly, does the very name of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, **though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, **yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house."

IOW: Everyone wants to be called Catholic, yet, in reality, he knows that when someone refers to the Catholic Church it’s not his church that is being referred to.

NB: Reference to the word “heretic” in St. Augustine’s quote is applied to no one on this thread personally.

 

[Randy_Carson]

“There is no salvation outside of the church.” (Cyprian of Carthage, Letter 72 [AD 250]).

 

[PRmerger]

Yes–and since both of these great men lived in a time when the ONLY Christian Church was the Catholic Church, these quotes could hardly be claimed by Protestants as saying, “See? We are included in the Church by Augustine and Aquinas!”

And before the dialogue progresses, I want to make it clear that anyone baptized outside a Catholic Church but in the Trinitarian formula, using water, is indeed joined to the Catholic Church, although imperfectly so.

 

[Carlan]

“If one is a Christian at all, one is in some kind of union with the Church, the Body of Christ. This is why the Church teaches and has always taught that ‘outside the Church, there is no salvation.’ … To talk about salvation “outside the Church” is like talking about swimming outside the water.” – Mark Shea

Randy what do you think of my simple thought about the reason i believe we will all be Catholic in heaven… whether or not all Christians,or non-Christians for that matter, believe in a Purifying State as we Catholics do, they will never the less have to experience it just as we will ,for that is where God will fulfill in all protesting Christians and others???the full Truth of Christs revelation.
Peace, Carlan

 

[WTSherman]

At the risk of being cast out from the Catholic faith, I think any Christian has access to heaven. I’m a Papist, and I would stress the importance of emphasizing our fellowship with other Christians, instead of getting picky about the differences.

 

[PRmerger]

At the risk of being cast out from the Catholic faith, I think any Christian has access to heaven. I’m a Papist, and I would stress the importance of emphasizing our fellowship with other Christians, instead of getting picky about the differences.

Would you also be willing to extend this fellowship to those who reject Christ but are monotheists, such as Muslims and Jews?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Randy what do you think of my simple thought about the reason i believe we will all be Catholic in heaven… whether or not all Christians,or non-Christians for that matter, believe in a Purifying State as we Catholics do, they will never the less have to experience it just as we will ,for that is where God will fulfill in all protesting Christians and others???the full Truth of Christs revelation.
Peace, Carlan

You’re right.

God does not have two plans of salvation: one for Catholics requiring Purgatory and one for Bible Christians who are “washed in the Blood”.