To Be in Heaven, You Must Be Catholic

[Doxiemom]

Well, not exactly. I do not have the time or the expertise really to discuss this with any weight or references. But these are the huge questions at the heart of the problem.
What is the Church?
Why does it exist?
Did Christ establish it?
Did he give authority to human beings and a structure to it, or is the Church merely a spiritual abstraction?
Can there be more than one Church, by definition, from Him who came to draw all people to himself?

When you say Church you are saying the structure of the Catholic Church and the pope as Vicar of Christ and its members and all in communion with this roman Catholic Church. And all of its catechism and holy traditions and sacraments and its dogmas of the Virgin Mary.

When I say church I say believers unto Jesus Christ.

There is only one church and it is us. The universal us.

 

[clem456]

When you say Church you are saying the structure of the Catholic Church and the pope as Vicar of Christ and its members and all in communion with this roman Catholic Church. And all of its catechism and holy traditions and sacraments and its dogmas of the Virgin Mary.

When I say church I say believers unto Jesus Christ.

There is only one church and it is us. The universal us.

So Terry Jones could truthfully represent the Church then?
How about the Westboro Baptist Church?
Jim Jones?
They would all claim to be church. The all loudly proclaim Jesus Christ.

 

[ffg]

When I say church I say believers unto Jesus Christ.

There is only one church and it is us. The universal us.

I wish we could use visual aids on these things.

If we say that we can all believe differing bits of history that fit our liking (aka, varying moral codes) which happen to have an umbrella theme named ‘Jesus’, wouldn’t that bring one to the conclusion that there will be a heaven for each of the types of moral codes?

If we conclude there is one Heaven filled with like minds. There must be a place on earth created to help humanity understand the moral code of how those pure minds in Heaven operate.

Otherwise, what was the purpose for God to come to earth and teach / save?

 

[Doxiemom]

So Terry Jones could truthfully represent the Church then?
How about the Westboro Baptist Church?
Jim Jones?
They would all claim to be church. The all loudly proclaim Jesus Christ.

Did not Jesus say that some who call themselves by His Name He will say to them that He never knew them and would be caste out into the darkness?

Really, please do not confuse evil mongers with the faithful. It was like saying that Nazi’s were doing God’s work.

You should have been smart enough to know that is not what I meant.
God Bless.

 

[clem456]

Did not Jesus say that some who call themselves by His Name He will say to them that He never knew them and would be caste out into the darkness?

Really, please do not confuse evil mongers with the faithful. It was like saying that Nazi’s were doing God’s work.

You should have been smart enough to know that is not what I meant.
God Bless.

I know what you meant. There is a question that you are missing.

How do YOU know, that the Nazi’s were not representing God’s will for humanity?
Or the Westboro Baptist Church etc…

You can say your parents taught you these truths, but they are mere human beings.
You can say that your Church taught you these truths, but that contradicts your universalism.
You can say Jesus tells you, but I can guarantee you that all those evil ones claim the same thing.
You can say it’s in Scripture. How do you know scripture is true? Was it handed to you personally? (honest question, I’m not trying to be difficult)
Who gives your parents or your church or you personally the authority to claim the Westboro Baptists are not truthfully leading people to salvation.
What is your source of authority, when many evil people can all claim to know Jesus?

 

[Doxiemom]

Scripture , the holy books of the bible, was compiled by the catholic church . They knew what they were doing form all I have read. So it is TRUTH. And I am grateful. But God used them for a purpose. But I am not grateful for everything the Catholic Church teaches because it has extra teachings that go beyond the Word of God.

What you want me to say is this : that it is only by the catholic church will I know if what another “church” or person is saying either true or false.

And I will answer you this : I will know by the Word of God. And by the Holy Spirit.

Being wrong is of itself is not evil nor a sin. But using God’s Holy Word for evil purposes , knowingly or unknowingly will matter when you are judged.

Look, I am expressing an opinion. I do not want to get nasty. So trying to equate westboro and Nazi’s ( who had strange arrangements with both islam and the catholic church) with all Christians is just wrong.

Now, for the record, I have read and I understand that there was no evil doings by the pope during WWII. How do I know that even though there are folks who believe otherwise/
Because I am not an idiot.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I wish we could use visual aids on these things.

You can. For example, here is a visual aid which represents Protestant and Catholic theology.

Each purple oval represents a single, distinct Protestant denomination, and the circle formed at the center represents the famous “Essentials” that Protestants claim to agree upon.

The red Circle represents the Catholic Church. :dancing:

 

[steido01]

You can. For example, here is a visual aid which represents Protestant and Catholic theology.

Each purple oval represents a single, distinct Protestant denomination, and the circle formed at the center represents the famous “Essentials” that Protestants claim to agree upon.

The red Circle represents the Catholic Church. :dancing:

Looks like the red circle includes quite a bit of extra empty space.

Forgive my ignorance, but what “Essentials” do protestants claim to agree upon? Are you mistakenly grouping all protestant communions together?

 

[ffg]

You can. For example, here is a visual aid which represents Protestant and Catholic theology.

Each purple oval represents a single, distinct Protestant denomination, and the circle formed at the center represents the famous “Essentials” that Protestants claim to agree upon.

The red Circle represents the Catholic Church. :dancing:

Interesting. I would extend the ovals (more realistically, some of them) past the red circle to represent that not all of what is encompassed in the oval is in the circle. For instance, I’m sure there are churches that are in line with the CC for the most part, but are ok with abortion. That would be outside the circle. of course this is only for the Churches that believe Jesus is the central figure (middle circle) .

I would also explain that what is inside the red circle might align with the CC, but you can see there is so much more to learn and be a part of between the oval and the circle. Thus when people see problems with all the ‘rules’, perhaps we can start seeing it as information yet to be learned, activities yet to be tried.

 

[SteveVH]

When I say church I say believers unto Jesus Christ.

There is only one church and it is us. The universal us.

What does this mean? Let’s leave out the fringe elements for the time being. How can there be one Church that cannot agree on what it believes about Jesus Christ but rather has thousands of opinions, each contradicting the other? That is nothing but universal chaos.

Sorry, there really is only one true Church and one true faith. To the degree you are in agreement with that Church is the degree to which you belong to the one true Church. If you have received a valid Christian baptism you are a part of the Church, though not in perfect communion with it.

 

[squirel]

All I can tell you is judge not. Jesus is the judge, how could I pretend to know anything other than what I have been told. I was born and raised a Catholic. I left and came back because after searching I found the truth is here. I can argue opinions but not facts. This is the church that Jesus started, he said it would always be here for us. I accept this and hope to see everyone good in heaven. If Gods grace is enough, fine, if not then I may be saddened but his will is to be done not mine. I pray for all, even the damned. If your not a Catholic then I pray that you look into the faith to see what you may be missing. May God bless you with openness and joy.

 

[JonNC]

=ufamtobie;11124097]JonNc, you did not answer my question in its entirety: do you adore and worship the Lutheran Eucharist? Kneeling is not necessarily worshiping.

Absolutely.

JonNC,Yes, Yes every Eucharist is a Miracle. What I’m asking you is, has there been any Lutheran Eucharist miracles regarding Eucharist that sheds blood in your Lutheran Church?

Not to my knowledge, but I am not sure of the relevance.

Good. JonNC, when you say other Lutheran Parishes, do you attend these other parishes or do you stay at you local Lutheran Parish? If you attend another Lutheran church any where in the world do you feel right at home?

Unfortunately, my parish does not. But then, traditions practice from parish to parish can vary. In terms of the Divine Service (mass), pretty much yes.

Already answered? I have not seen any answer by you in this post re: After all who received your Lutheran Eucharist, at your church, the remaining Eucharist how and where is it stored?

Don posted the LCMS practice.

Corporate Confession? We have the Confiteor, general absolution, however, can only absolve us from the guilt of venial sin. If we are conscious of mortal sin, we must still seek out the Sacrament of Confession in order to receive the Catholic Eucharist. JonNC, if you are conscious of mortal sin do you believe your “Corporate Lutheran Confession” will suffice God, in order to receive your Lutheran Eucharist?

As I mentioned, our view of mortal and venial sins differ. I have, indeed, availed myself of private confession when I felt I needed to.

1john 5: 16,17 16If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. 17All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.

Venial = is a sin not leading to death. Mortal = is a sin leading to death.

From our perspective, all sin could be mortal, and in fact is for the unregenerate. For the regenerate, the necessity of confessing and receiving absolution is vital, as is striving to “go and sin no more”.

Jon, When we die and come before Jesus Christ, and standing there before Him, with sin not leading to death on our souls, without having anyone of our brothers praying for us to God to forgive us this venial sin in this world, what then? Purgatory! But this is another thread.

And one that appears frequently.

Jon,NC I hope you are recovering well.

Thank you. It is, by the grace of God, and the many prayers made on my behalf.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

You can. For example, here is a visual aid which represents Protestant and Catholic theology.

Each purple oval represents a single, distinct Protestant denomination, and the circle formed at the center represents the** famous “Essentials” that Protestants claim to agree upon.**
The red Circle represents the Catholic Church. :dancing:

Which protestants, Randy?

Jon

 

[Randy_Carson]

Looks like the red circle includes quite a bit of extra empty space.

Since the space inside of the ovals and circle represent the sum total of known truths about God, I think your interpretation is seriously flawed.

Forgive my ignorance, but what “Essentials” do protestants claim to agree upon? Are you mistakenly grouping all protestant communions together?

Boy, wouldn’t it be great if you guys were unified enough that we could actually do that?

In lieu of actual unity, Protestant leaders got together a few years ago and compiled a list of “essentials” that they could all agree upon. These are: the deity of Christ, salvation by God’s grace and not by works, salvation through Jesus Christ alone, the resurrection of Christ, the Gospel, monotheism and the Holy Trinity.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Interesting. I would extend the ovals (more realistically, some of them) past the red circle to represent that not all of what is encompassed in the oval is in the circle. For instance, I’m sure there are churches that are in line with the CC for the most part, but are ok with abortion. That would be outside the circle. of course this is only for the Churches that believe Jesus is the central figure (middle circle) .

I would also explain that what is inside the red circle might align with the CC, but you can see there is so much more to learn and be a part of between the oval and the circle. Thus when people see problems with all the ‘rules’, perhaps we can start seeing it as information yet to be learned, activities yet to be tried.

:clapping:

These have been some of my thoughts over the years, so I’m impressed that you actually thought about it and came up with this stuff.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Which protestants, Randy?

Jon

I tried to Google that quickly but didn’t find it. I seem to recall that Chuck Colson and a number of other “leaders” signed some type of a document on this in the 1980’s (or so).

Of course, you guys may not have been invited to that party.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

In lieu of actual unity, Protestant leaders got together a few years ago and compiled a list of “essentials” that they could all agree upon. These are: the deity of Christ, salvation by God’s grace and not by works, salvation through Jesus Christ alone, the resurrection of Christ, the Gospel, monotheism and the Holy Trinity.

Can you be more specific about these “Protestant leaders” getting together. Was it the ‘Faith and Order’ movement?

 

[PRmerger]

No, I do not…It is not my place to exclude anyone from heaven. The Church has taken that same position.

Then I am unsure as to what your objection is to the opinions of Catholics here.

 

[chimo]

Thanks for the reply. To be fair, you didn’t really understand the topic, unless I have been wrong this whole time (not the first, or going to the last time - thinking it’s about those in heaven already).

I guess, I would just say, do you have any siblings?

Humans are not perfect and humans are running the joint.

We’re not going to be pure until Heaven, if we are so blessed.

Expect chaos in a world full of sinners!

The great thing about this stuff is that it is the ultimate ‘do what I say, not what I do’.

We can all try to be the best in light of the information available to us. We’re not going to be able to appear perfect though, so if we wait until we appear perfect to share the Good News, we are wasting the short time we have to share.

To answer this thread to be in Heaven I would say you need the Holy Spirit. That was my point. Without the Holy Spirit it is impossible to enter Heaven. I disagree with about you saying we will only be perfected in Heaven. We can be perfected now. The point of Jesus coming was to give to us the Holy Spirit. You can achieve Heaven now in the Presence and Power of God which is His Holy Spirit that He gives to you. You don’t need to wait for Heaven when Heaven can come to you. This property can be anyone’s if they want it. We have the saints before us who testify to us that Heaven can come in this life.

 

[PRmerger]

There is only one church and it is us. The universal us.

And what does this Church profess?

Does it say that baptism is a sacrament? Or an ordinance? Does it say that Saturday is the day of worship? Or Sunday? Does it say that the epistles of St. Paul are not inspired? Or are they theopneustos? Is the Eucharist the Real Presence of Christ? Is it a symbol? Or is it an abomination? Is divorce and re-marriage adultery? Or is it just another life choice? Are women permitted to pastor a church? Or are women to be kept in separated quarters?