To Be in Heaven, You Must Be Catholic

[PRmerger]

Scripture , the holy books of the bible, was compiled by the catholic church .

:extrahappy:

Do you believe, then, that the Catholic Church was given the charism of infallibility, at least as it applies to the 27 book canon of the New Testament?

Or do you believe that the Church may have erred in discerning this NT canon?

They knew what they were doing form all I have read. So it is TRUTH. And I am grateful. But God used them for a purpose. But I am not grateful for everything the Catholic Church teaches because it has extra teachings that go beyond the Word of God.

But do you also not go beyond the Word of God and accept some revelation that is not found in the Bible–namely, the canon of the NT?

 

[chimo]

Nice sentiments…wonderful, truly.

But it remains a sad fact of history that the Orthodox separated themselves from Peter whom Jesus established as the head of his Church.

So, equal? No…I can’t see it.

This is not the position of Jesus. It is the position of some in the Church. I find that the history has shown us we tend to think this way because we were taught to believe it. It is my observations that the Orthodox and Catholics are not divided. It is the thought of this that actually divides us because we want to believe it. But let us say in the heart of Jesus there is no division at all between His Orthodox and Catholic Church. I am saying let us think for a moment this is true. Then how would you respond to this if Jesus told you this so called schism is not a schism at all? May be this so called schism is partly our fault for making it into a schism when in actuality in the eyes of Jesus He doesn’t see it this way at all. We are telling everyone though it is!

I must confess the language of the Catholic Church must be respected and so too the language of the Orthodox. You say the Orthodox have separated themselves from Peter. Have you ever thought what they separated themselves from what? What kind of relationship did the Pope have with the East? It certainly was not the same as the Pope had with his own Church. How can the relationship with East and West be dependant on this principal of having communion with the Holy Father when there was never any coexisting relationship with the East by the Popes ever in its history. How can there have been separation when there was nothing to separate themselves in the first place? Since there was no relationship that existed between East and West that was similar to what the Popes had with their own Church than this relationship cannot be in schism. All that occurred was misunderstandings, misconceptions and misinformed knowledge of who each other was.

We were arguing back then about things we could not fully grasp about our two theologies that were just in their formation period. There was hardly any communication or contacts of who each other were back then so it was incredible they wouldn’t argue. They argued because of lack of knowledge of who the other was. It is natural for us to argue about something that we do not know of. This means that no schism occurred but a more natural indifferences of who each other were. Our two Churches were made different for good reasons. We were made different so that it will be our differences that will unite us! Like a good marriage that can occur between two different people so our two Churches were ordained to follow in this example. Back 1000 years ago it was not the right time to bring us together. The unity of our Churches will occur when we accept each other as equals.

 

[october_baby]

Ah, invincible ignorance. A question on this:

While certainly no expert, I believe I have a pretty fair knowledge of what the Catholic Church in communion with the Bishop of Rome teaches. I have made a point to do so. Even so, I remain Lutheran. Some might say I have voided any hope of salvation on the claim of invincible ignorance.

Would it be better, more charitable, if Catholics went out of their way NOT to share the Catholic faith with non-Catholics, therefore ensuring their invincible ignorance?
(Maybe this should be a separate thread?)

Jon

But, in the book of Mark Jesus says"go preach the gospel to ALL nations." How do you square this?

 

[Doxiemom]

I think I said it very clearly but you do not like my answer.

All Christians make up the "church’. yes, With all of our different imperfect discernments of Holy Scripture. We yearn for God.

I doubt very much when I am in heaven I will called a catholic. I will be called Christian and a child of God. I doubt very much there will be Masses in heaven. There will be no more sacrifice of the Lamb. There will be no more Last Supper. There shall be a Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

Sacraments, rituals in of themselves are not evil. Even when they may have evolved over the many centuries and were used in a newer fashion for familiarity, they lost their paganism because of the change of the heart to Jesus Christ.

In the end it really matters quite little what I think. And frankly where I worship the Lord. God will have me do whatever He pleases I do when I see Him. Which I shall. And you also, I pray hopefully.

Whether you want to believe it or not I have a great deal of respect for the catholic church. She spread the Gospel to all of the known world at that time.

But I do not believe in the exclusiveness of the papacy, priesthood, or infallibility.

I am sorry if anything I have said seems insulting. It was not meant to be. I just cannot be a catholic.

 

[PRmerger]

I think I said it very clearly but you do not like my answer.

To whom is this post directed?

 

[jmcrae]

I think I said it very clearly but you do not like my answer.

All Christians make up the "church’. yes, With all of our different imperfect discernments of Holy Scripture. We yearn for God.

If it is Christ’s Church, then it cannot be imperfect - it must teach the Truth, and only the Truth. If what we have is confused and contradictory, then it is not that which Christ gave to Peter, and empowered with the Holy Spirit. Heresy has no place in Christ’s Church.

Therefore, only one of the many organizations calling themselves “Christian” can be Christ’s Church - and it stands to reason that it must be the one He established on the Apostles and gave to Peter - the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[october_baby]

This whole thread demonstrates how almost completely impossible it is to evangelize effectively in a culture that does not intuit the “bad news” which the Gospel proposes to remedy.

 

[ufamtobie]

Absolutely.

JonNC, Absolutely? you are still not answer my question in its entirety: do you adore and worship the Lutheran Eucharist? Kneeling is not necessarily worshiping. What are you “absolutely” referring to is it that you adore and worship the Lutheran Eucharist or you absolutely agree that kneeling is not necessarily worshiping… Let me rephrase the question: My question to you do you Adore and Worship the Lutheran Eucharist?

Not to my knowledge, but I am not sure of the relevance.

Praise be to God,you are feeling better.

Ufam Tobie

 

[ffg]

To answer this thread to be in Heaven I would say you need the Holy Spirit. That was my point. Without the Holy Spirit it is impossible to enter Heaven. I disagree with about you saying we will only be perfected in Heaven. We can be perfected now. The point of Jesus coming was to give to us the Holy Spirit. You can achieve Heaven now in the Presence and Power of God which is His Holy Spirit that He gives to you. You don’t need to wait for Heaven when Heaven can come to you. This property can be anyone’s if they want it. We have the saints before us who testify to us that Heaven can come in this life.

So just to be clear, you think earth dwelling humans can be perfect?

Perhaps our definitions of perfect are not the same.

 

[ffg]

But I do not believe in the exclusiveness of the papacy, priesthood, or infallibility.

I am sorry if anything I have said seems insulting. It was not meant to be. I just cannot be a catholic.

For one, I do believe the respect you claim. There are a lot of hangouts in this world and on this internet, your presence here is a joy.

With regard to the papacy, etc. point. The argument put forth by the OP is that you will believe once in Heaven. At that point we can only assume those in Heaven are on the same page.

With regard to your last, I don’t want to write for others, for myself, ‘offense’ or ‘insult’ in theological or philosophical discussions is impossible considering we as players are not on the same page to begin. To understand someone is a great learning experience, to reject out of dislike of communication style is selfish.

Regarding your very last, be careful, those are famous words previously spoken by many strong Catholics. Really the strongest I know as they’ve made incredible sacrifice to change. (I suppose as a thread title defense, including All those in Heaven who were not card carrying members on Earth)

Take care,

 

[JonNC]

I tried to Google that quickly but didn’t find it. I seem to recall that Chuck Colson and a number of other “leaders” signed some type of a document on this in the 1980’s (or so).

Of course, you guys may not have been invited to that party.

Probably not. We’re too much like you.

For us the “essentials” can be found in the Augsburg Confession.

Jon

 

[Randy_Carson]

Can you be more specific about these “Protestant leaders” getting together. Was it the ‘Faith and Order’ movement?

I’m afraid Google will be your best bet. However, if memory serves, it was folks like Chuck Colson, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, etc.

Memory fades, but they were HUGE in their day.

 

[Randy_Carson]

To answer this thread to be in Heaven I would say you need the Holy Spirit. That was my point. Without the Holy Spirit it is impossible to enter Heaven. I disagree with about you saying we will only be perfected in Heaven. We can be perfected now. The point of Jesus coming was to give to us the Holy Spirit. You can achieve Heaven now in the Presence and Power of God which is His Holy Spirit that He gives to you. You don’t need to wait for Heaven when Heaven can come to you. This property can be anyone’s if they want it. We have the saints before us who testify to us that Heaven can come in this life.

No, you must be baptized into Christ to be a member of His body in heaven.

Formal baptism or baptism of desire (implicit or explicit) - doesn’t matter which, but you have to have one.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

I’m afraid Google will be your best bet. However, if memory serves, it was folks like Chuck Colson, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, etc.

Memory fades, but they were HUGE in their day.

I see. Again, the word “Protestant” can be confusing. Lutherans got together 500 yrs ago and produced the Augsburg Confession; that is our statement of faith today as well.

 

[clem456]

I see. Again, the word “Protestant” can be confusing. Lutherans got together 500 yrs ago and produced the Augsburg Confession; that is our statement of faith today as well.

I am respectfully curious if that Confession included tolerance of abortion, among other things.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I see. Again, the word “Protestant” can be confusing. Lutherans got together 500 yrs ago and produced the Augsburg Confession; that is our statement of faith today as well.

EC-

As a former Protestant, I’m pretty familiar with the term, and given my longevity and activity level here, I have often been reminded and occasionally corrected by Protestants of all stripes.

That said, I think you are making my case for me. The fact that there are so many “confessions” with differing theological views is precisely what caused a number of influential Protestants from different camps to come together to define what they considered to be the core or “essential” beliefs of Christianity.

 

[benjohnson]

I am respectfully curious if that Confession included tolerance of abortion, among other things.

Absolutely not - murdering children in the wombs of their mothers finds no justification in Scripture nor in the Confessions.

Murderers and sinners (like me!) are called to repent and seek forgiveness - that is what you’ll find.

 

[clem456]

Well ok, I am responding to the inference that a continuous statement of faith is present, when the current church positions do not support what would have been believed 500 years ago.

And I do not want to derail this thread so I’m just going to leave it at that. I do respect the common Christian beliefs we do have.

 

[benjohnson]

Well ok, I am responding to the inference that a continuous statement of faith is present, when the current church positions do not support what would have been believed 500 years ago.

I agree!

May God have mercy on us all for disobeying His word even though we profess that we are repentant. I have a part of my mind that thinks I know better than God.

 

[JonNC]

I am respectfully curious if that Confession included tolerance of abortion, among other things.

Certainly not.

Jon