To Be in Heaven, You Must Be Catholic

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jmcrae said:
The Pope has been placed in spiritual authority over the whole world (every human being who has ever lived and who ever will live) by Jesus.

This means that in order to be saved, we must become in visible unioin with him and do as he commands.

If a Hindu lives in India, he is subject to the Indian government, even if he disagrees with their policies. The Indian government has the right to arrest him and put him in prison if he disobeys their laws - even if he says, “I don’t like the government and I disagree with their policies.”

It has nothing to do with what an individual person might wish were true; it has to do with who God has placed in authority over us.
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This is not acceptable to Eastern Orthodox, who deny that the Roman Pope has been placed in spiritual authority over them. They cite the papal teachings on the filioque, which they say are in error.
 
Tomdstone said:
This is not acceptable to Hindus who deny that they are subject to the Roman Pontiff. Please explain how a Hindu is a subject of the Roman Pope?
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Tom-

The pope is the royal steward over the household of the King.

Therefore, if you are in heaven, you are subject to the King, His Queen and His Royal Steward.

Period.
 
jmcrae said:
This would come as a complete shock to Martin Luther, the inventor of the Christmas tree. He thought the evergreen boughs were reminders of the tree of life, Jesus, and that the ornaments were reminders of the fruit of the tree (the Eucharist). :christmastree1:
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Maybe Martin Luther should have spent more study time in the Druidic religious teachings which were in effect many centuries before 1517.
 
Randy_Carson said:
Tom-

The pope is the royal steward over the household of the King.

Therefore, if you are in heaven, you are subject to the King, His Queen and His Royal Steward.

Period.
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The Eastern Orthodox do not accept the universal jurisdiction of the Roman Pope. They say it is a serious error in Roman Catholic teaching and yet they still are allowed to receive Holy Communion in the RC Church according to RC teaching (but not their own). You are subject to God, but you are not subject to the Roman Pontiff according to their teaching.
 
Hallelujah!

Praise be to God, our Father, who sent His only son here to save all of us who love Him with all our hearts, souls, and minds!
 
PRmerger said:
The fact that you say that this very, very simple analogy is false indicates that you do not have a grasp of analogies. At all.

But could you please ignore any kind of analogy and just pretend that a Muslim asked you the question, as posited earlier. You have been trying to have a religious dialogue with him and have told him that Jesus Christ is Lord. He tells you that he is not subject to him, and that if you keep saying that Jesus is Lord it will inhibit unity.

How do you respond to him?
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Hiya, Tomdstone.

Could you please answer the above?

Let’s just dispose of any talk of analogies and simplify the discussion to the above scenario.
 
PRmerger said:
Hiya, Tomdstone.

Could you please answer the above?

Let’s just dispose of any talk of analogies and simplify the discussion to the above scenario.
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The scenario you have outlined is impossible because Muslims teach that they are subject to Jesus Christ as He was a great prophet, just as Mohammed and Moses were prophets.
 
Tomdstone said:
Maybe Martin Luther should have spent more study time in the Druidic religious teachings which were in effect many centuries before 1517.
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I feel certain he would have cut his own throat before reading any kind of pagan literature (assuming such a thing existed … ?)

Our information about the practices of early Celtic pagans is based on archaeology and speculation. I’m not aware that they left any writings behind for anyone to study, and whatever they were doing with their trees, I’m reasonably certain they weren’t celebrating the Nativity of our Lord Jesus Christ (also called “Christmas”).
 
jmcrae said:
I feel certain he would have cut his own throat before reading any kind of pagan literature (assuming such a thing existed … ?)

Our information about the practices of early Celtic pagans is based on archaeology and speculation. I’m not aware that they left any writings behind for anyone to study, and whatever they were doing with their trees, I’m reasonably certain they weren’t celebrating the Nativity of our Lord Jesus Christ (also called “Christmas”).
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Speculation? What about the treatise Historia Naturalis by Pliny the Elder where he describes a Druidic festival on the sixth day of the moon where the druids showed their reverence to an oak tree and cut a bough of mistletoe as part of a fertility rite.
 
Tomdstone said:
Speculation? What about the treatise Historia Naturalis by Pliny the Elder where he describes a Druidic festival on the sixth day of the moon where the druids showed their reverence to an oak tree and cut a bough of mistletoe as part of a fertility rite.
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Pliny was not a Druid.
 
jmcrae said:
Pliny was not a Druid.
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So what? Pliny was an historian reporting on the Druids. You said that our knowledge of the practices of the Druids was based on archaeology and speculation. This is only partially true, since there is other historical evidence pointing to the Druid veneration of the tree. Further, the tree was an object of veneration in many other cultures, such as the Germanic culture, and this was centuries earlier than Martin Luther was born.
 
Tomdstone said:
So what? Pliny was an historian reporting on the Druids. You said that our knowledge of the practices of the Druids was based on archaeology and speculation. This is only partially true, since there is other historical evidence pointing to the Druid veneration of the tree. Further, the tree was an object of veneration in many other cultures, such as the Germanic culture, and this was centuries earlier than Martin Luther was born.
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And there is no connection, because when Martin Luther came up with the idea of the Christmas tree, he wasn’t thinking about Druids or pre-historic Germans, or about worshipping trees.

He was thinking about the Tree of Life, and how Jesus is the fulfillment of the Tree of Life in His death on the Cross, in His Resurrection, and in the Eucharist, and he was thinking about a fun way to teach his children about these things at Christmas time.
 
jmcrae said:
And there is no connection, because when Martin Luther came up with the idea of the Christmas tree, he wasn’t thinking about Druids or pre-historic Germans, or about worshipping trees.

He was thinking about the Tree of Life, and how Jesus is the fulfillment of the Tree of Life in His death on the Cross, in His Resurrection, and in the Eucharist, and he was thinking about a fun way to teach his children about these things at Christmas time.
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If this originated with Martin Luther, how do you explain the fact that Tertullian (circa 160 - 230), complained that too many fellow-Christians had copied the Pagan practice of adorning their houses with lamps and with wreathes of laurel and branches of trees at Christmas time?
 
Tomdstone said:
If this originated with Martin Luther, how do you explain the fact that Tertullian (circa 160 - 230), complained that too many fellow-Christians had copied the Pagan practice of adorning their houses with lamps and with wreathes of laurel and branches of trees at Christmas time?
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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_tree

Northern Germany and Luther.

But folks may have decorated trees long before Luther.

Sorry if I missed the seque…what does this matter relative to this thread?
 
One writes this:
“What about the treatise Historia Naturalis by Pliny the Elder where he describes a Druidic festival…”

Another responds with:
“Pliny was not a Druid.”

:doh2: No one made the claim that he was one…

This kind of thing happens a lot in these discussions. It’s frusterating.
 
steve_b said:
Think about that statement.

Intention is everything.

Let’s look at this from the practical position. If protestants are Catholic they could receive the Eucharist in the Catholic Church. Protestants can’t do that. Why? As the bishops say, it presupposes a unity that doesn’t exist. So where do people get the idea they are “in” the Church? BTW, How do you take that? It’s obvious to me they are outside the Church. They are not Catholic and they are NOT “in” the Church. Do you have another explanation?
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I (the Protestant) agree with you 100%. It was Catholics here who were saying something different.
steve_b said:
That’s NOT my understanding of what Catholic means.
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Then you have to take it up with the authors of that paragraph of the CCC.
PRmerger said:
I am only saying what the Bible says, Alizarin. We make up what is lacking.
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And I was only saying what Jesus said. It is finished. 🤷
 
This is utter blasphemy, quit playing God. He loves us Protestants just as Catholics.

The Church is the body of born again believers…not a denomination.
 
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