To Be in Heaven, You Must Be Catholic

[Avdima]

Out of the billions alive and the billions who will ever live, there is only one person who actually has to go to Heaven - and She is already there. God does not “grade on the curve” and if only a few people go to Heaven, it is not His failure, but ours.

You’re forgetting someone else, the Thief on the cross, surely he must be in heaven.

 

[PRmerger]

You’re forgetting someone else, the Thief on the cross, surely he must be in heaven.

No one is saying that he’s not in heaven.

Only that there was just one person who *has to *go to heaven–Mary. Emphasis on the “has to”.

 

[PRmerger]

This is utter blasphemy, quit playing God. He loves us Protestants just as Catholics.

No one is saying God doesn’t love Protestants. Please do not create straw men.

The Church is the body of born again believers…not a denomination.

Why can’t the Church be both?

 

[PRmerger]

And I was only saying what Jesus said. It is finished.

Amen! His work is finished. Ours begins at baptism.

 

[PRmerger]

Sorry if I missed the seque…what does this matter relative to this thread?

It was just a demonstration that some people are unable to grasp analogies.

 

[PRmerger]

The scenario you have outlined is impossible because Muslims teach that they are subject to Jesus Christ as He was a great prophet, just as Mohammed and Moses were prophets.

Please cite your source that says that Muslims believe Jesus Christ is Lord. Thanks.

The fact that you say that this very, very simple analogy is false indicates that you do not have a grasp of analogies. At all.

But could you please ignore any kind of analogy and just pretend that a Muslim asked you the question, as posited earlier. You have been trying to have a religious dialogue with him and have told him that Jesus Christ is Lord. He tells you that he is not subject to him, and that if you keep saying that Jesus is Lord it will inhibit unity.

How do you respond to him?

 

[Tomdstone]

Please cite your source that says that Muslims believe Jesus Christ is Lord. Thanks.

I said that they believe Jesus to be a great prophet, just as Mohammed was.

 

[PRmerger]

I said that they believe Jesus to be a great prophet, just as Mohammed was.

So what would you say to a Muslim who tells you that he does not have to believe that Jesus is Lord and your telling him that Jesus is Lord inhibits any unity. He says: Jesus may be your Lord, but he is not mine. And when you say that, it stops any potential Muslim from becoming Christian.

What would you tell him?

 

[yogosans14]

No one is saying God doesn’t love Protestants. Please do not create straw men.

Why can’t the Church be both?

Um, ok if you like it that way. I belong to the Church and so do you. Congrats.

 

[Tomdstone]

So what would you say to a Muslim who tells you that he does not have to believe that Jesus is Lord and your telling him that Jesus is Lord inhibits any unity. He says: Jesus may be your Lord, but he is not mine. And when you say that, it stops any potential Muslim from becoming Christian.

What would you tell him?

I would say what the Roman Catholic popes have said, that I have deep respect for Muslims who worship God and that Muslims are believers who have inherited from Israel and Christians the same God . I would greet them with esteem and affectionate regard mentioning that I have great respect for the Koran, which is the holy book of a great religion. I would thank those who are developing Islamic culture.
Do you object to what the infallible Roman Pontiff has said about Islam?
Pope Benedict XVI, General Audience, Sept. 20, 2006: “I hope that in the various circumstances during my Visit – for example, when in Munich I emphasized how important it is to respect what is sacred to others – that my deep respect for the great religions, and especially the Muslims, who ‘worship God…’ appeared quite clear!”
Pope Benedict XVI, Address, Dec. 22, 2006: “My visit to Turkey afforded me the opportunity to show also publicly my respect for the Islamic Religion, a respect, moreover, which the Second Vatican Council (declaration Nostra Aetate #3) pointed out to us as an attitude that is only right.”
Pope Benedict XVI, Address to Representatives of Islam, August 20, 2005: “The believer – and all of us, as Christians and Muslims, are believers – … You guide Muslim believers and train them in the Islamic faith… You, therefore, have a great responsibility for the formation of the younger generation.”
Pope Benedict XVI, Address, Sept. 25, 2006: “I would like to reiterate today all the esteem and the profound respect that I have for Muslim believers, calling to mind the words of the Second Vatican Council which for the Catholic Church are the magna Carta of Muslim-Catholic dialogue: ‘The Church looks upon Muslims with respect. They worship the one God living and subsistent… At this time when for Muslims the spiritual journey of the month of Ramadan is beginning, I address to all of them my cordial good wishes, praying that the Almighty may grant them serene and peaceful lives. May the God of peace fill you with the abundance of his Blessings, together with the communities you represent."

Pope Benedict XVI, Pilgrim Fellowship of Faith, 2002, p. 273: “… Islam, too, … has inherited from Israel and the Christians the same God…”
Pope Benedict XVI, speech apologizing for his comments on Islam, Sept. 2006: “In the Muslim world, this quotation has unfortunately been taken as an expression of my personal position, thus arousing understandable indignation. I hope that the reader of my text can see immediately that this sentence does not express my personal view of the Qur’an, for which I have the respect due to the holy book of a great religion.”
Pope John Paul II, Message to “Grand Sheikh Mohammed,” Feb. 24, 2000: “Islam is a religion. Christianity is a religion. Islam has become a culture. Christianity has become also a culture… I thank your university, the biggest center of Islamic culture. I thank those who are developing Islamic culture…”

 

[PRmerger]

Um, ok if you like it that way. I belong to the Church and so do you. Congrats.

Yes. No one has said you don’t belong.

You are imperfectly joined, but a member nonetheless.

You cannot receive Him in the Holy Eucharist until you are perfectly joined.

 

[PRmerger]

I would say what the Roman Catholic popes have said, that I have deep respect for Muslims who worship God and that Muslims are believers who have inherited from Israel and Christians the same God . I would greet them with esteem and affectionate regard mentioning that I have great respect for the Koran, which is the holy book of a great religion. I would thank those who are developing Islamic culture.
Do you object to what the infallible Roman Pontiff has said about Islam?
Pope Benedict XVI, General Audience, Sept. 20, 2006: “I hope that in the various circumstances during my Visit – for example, when in Munich I emphasized how important it is to respect what is sacred to others – that my deep respect for the great religions, and especially the Muslims, who ‘worship God…’ appeared quite clear!”
Pope Benedict XVI, Address, Dec. 22, 2006: “My visit to Turkey afforded me the opportunity to show also publicly my respect for the Islamic Religion, a respect, moreover, which the Second Vatican Council (declaration Nostra Aetate #3) pointed out to us as an attitude that is only right.”
Pope Benedict XVI, Address to Representatives of Islam, August 20, 2005: “The believer – and all of us, as Christians and Muslims, are believers – … You guide Muslim believers and train them in the Islamic faith… You, therefore, have a great responsibility for the formation of the younger generation.”
Pope Benedict XVI, Address, Sept. 25, 2006: “I would like to reiterate today all the esteem and the profound respect that I have for Muslim believers, calling to mind the words of the Second Vatican Council which for the Catholic Church are the magna Carta of Muslim-Catholic dialogue: ‘The Church looks upon Muslims with respect. They worship the one God living and subsistent… At this time when for Muslims the spiritual journey of the month of Ramadan is beginning, I address to all of them my cordial good wishes, praying that the Almighty may grant them serene and peaceful lives. May the God of peace fill you with the abundance of his Blessings, together with the communities you represent."

Pope Benedict XVI, Pilgrim Fellowship of Faith, 2002, p. 273: “… Islam, too, … has inherited from Israel and the Christians the same God…”
Pope Benedict XVI, speech apologizing for his comments on Islam, Sept. 2006: “In the Muslim world, this quotation has unfortunately been taken as an expression of my personal position, thus arousing understandable indignation. I hope that the reader of my text can see immediately that this sentence does not express my personal view of the Qur’an, for which I have the respect due to the holy book of a great religion.”
Pope John Paul II, Message to “Grand Sheikh Mohammed,” Feb. 24, 2000: “Islam is a religion. Christianity is a religion. Islam has become a culture. Christianity has become also a culture… I thank your university, the biggest center of Islamic culture. I thank those who are developing Islamic culture…”

Excellent.

So you can see the inconsistency of your position.

You permit yourself to say to Muslims: Jesus is Lord, even if you don’t believe that. You are one of Christ’s creatures.

Yet don’t permit Catholics to say to you: the Holy Father is your Holy Father, even if you don’t believe that. You are one of his subjects.

This is an untenable position.

Either you allow Catholics to proclaim the truths of the faith to you, and allow yourself to proclaim the truths of Christianity to Muslims…

OR

You let Muslims deny that Jesus is Lord and then you can deny that the Holy Father is the vicar of Christ.

 

[yogosans14]

Yes. No one has said you don’t belong.

You are imperfectly joined, but a member nonetheless.

You cannot receive Him in the Holy Eucharist until you are perfectly joined.

No I’m pretty sure most Protestant Churches have Holy Communion…

 

[PRmerger]

No I’m pretty sure most Protestant Churches have Holy Communion…

Not the body and blood soul and divinity of Jesus our Lord and Savior.

 

[Tomdstone]

Excellent.

So you can see the inconsistency of your position.

You permit yourself to say to Muslims: Jesus is Lord, even if you don’t believe that. You are one of Christ’s creatures.

Yet don’t permit Catholics to say to you: the Holy Father is your Holy Father, even if you don’t believe that. You are one of his subjects.

This is an untenable position.

Either you allow Catholics to proclaim the truths of the faith to you, and allow yourself to proclaim the truths of Christianity to Muslims…

OR

You let Muslims deny that Jesus is Lord and then you can deny that the Holy Father is the vicar of Christ.

As I said above, we should follow what the Catholic popes have said and have great esteem for the Muslims and their holy Book, the Koran, which one pope has even kissed. Further, we should realize that the Muslims and the Christians worship the same God and we should thank Muslims for developing Islamic culture.
However, the question was whether it is necessary for salvation to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. Please note that E. orthodox Christians reject the jurisdiction of the Roman Pope over them and yet the RC Church still teaches that they can be saved, and they are even allowed (according to RC teaching, but not according to EO teaching) to receive the precious Body and Blood of Christ in Holy Communion while at the same time they explicitly reject the universal jurisdiction and universal supremacy of the Roman Pontiff.
So the inconsistency is in your position, not mine.

 

[yogosans14]

Not the body and blood soul and divinity of Jesus our Lord and Savior.

Mhm, wheres your evidence?

 

[Church_Militant]

Mhm, wheres your evidence?

Here ya go…The Eucharist IS Scriptural

 

[PRmerger]

As I said above, we should follow what the Catholic popes have said and have great esteem for the Muslims and their holy Book, the Koran, which one pope has even kissed. Further, we should realize that the Muslims and the Christians worship the same God and we should thank Muslims for developing Islamic culture.

Amen!

And you will note that in the past I have offered great admiration for the contributions of the Islamic culture.

To wit: (from a pridian discussion on a different thread)

I wouldn’t see it as “blaming Muslims for scholasticism”.

Rather, I would see it as giving Islam credit for influencing Christian pedagogy.

Kudos to the Islamic world for its veneration of scholasticism! And if it served as a catalyst for Christian scholarship, this is my response: :tiphat:

I loudly and proudly give the Muslim world a high five for being Aquinas’ intellectual forebear.

I also am thankful and in awe at the Muslim contribution here:

http://www.fodors.com/images/experiences/Spain-Grenada-Alhambra-fountains.jpg

I also offer admiration for their contributions here:

http://www.ndt-ed.org/EducationResources/Math/mathimages/algeq.jpg

 

[PRmerger]

However, the question was whether it is necessary for salvation to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. Please note that E. orthodox Christians reject the jurisdiction of the Roman Pope over them and yet the RC Church still teaches that they can be saved, and they are even allowed (according to RC teaching, but not according to EO teaching) to receive the precious Body and Blood of Christ in Holy Communion while at the same time they explicitly reject the universal jurisdiction and universal supremacy of the Roman Pontiff.
So the inconsistency is in your position, not mine.

Not at all inconsistent, Tomdstone.

Just as we say that Muslims may be saved–it is only through the lordship of Jesus Christ, so, too can the EO be saved–but it is only through the guidance of the vicar of Christ.

Both may be saved, whether they acknowledge the above or not.

Quite consistent.

You, however, have reserved for yourself the fact that Muslims are God’s creatures, even if they don’t acknowledge the Triune God, yet, peculiarly, you object to Catholicism saying you are a Christian but are subject to the vicar of Christ.

Quite inconsistent.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Um, ok if you like it that way. I belong to the Church and so do you. Congrats.

Amen!

Now, let’s think about that Church. Is it invisible or visible?

One perspective (yours perhaps?) is that Jesus established one church, but it is an invisible, abstract, “spiritual” church made up of all true believers, regardless of their denomination, doctrinal beliefs or which worship services they may attend on Sunday.

Thus, each individual believer who has accepted Jesus Christ as his or her personal savior is considered to be a member of the “invisible” church. Neither the building where Christians gather, nor the gathering itself, nor even the denomination to which they belong is considered to be the church. The church is bigger than the local congregation and denomination. This understanding explains why it really does not matter whether a believer moves from congregation to congregation each Sunday or changes denominations every few years when they don’t like pastor or the nursery or the music ministry at the church they’ve been attending.

This is a very common view among non-Catholics, but is it true? Did Jesus establish an “invisible” church that is only “spiritual” in nature? The answer very plainly is, “No!” Jesus said:

"If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.” (Matthew 18:15-17)

“Tell it to the church”? Which church? Where does one go to find the church if it is merely a “spiritual” church? And how does one find it if it is invisible? Obviously, the church must be visible, and we can be sure of this because Jesus also said:

“You are the light of the world. A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden.” (Matthew 5:14)

Clearly, Jesus is not talking about an invisible, “spiritual” church; he says the church cannot be hidden. It must be visible.

Are you a member of the visible church?