To Be in Heaven, You Must Be Catholic

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RemoRH said:
Lol ok true I am joining this convo a bit late. Sorry if I stepped on a few toes here guus and girls. I had no intention of calling anyone judgemental and it wasn’t directed at anyone. Thats why I phrased it as a question and also using we and not you (plural), but if anyone was offended I apologise sincerely.
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No offense.
We would however suggest you read the rules for posting however.
 
Randy_Carson said:
:clapping::extrahappy::yyeess:
:bluelite::whackadoo::yeah_me:
:choocho:
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A good idea is a good idea :yup: And the evidence for that one (pruning) is in the religious orders. The ones that are thriving with new recruits are the ones that are not wishy-washy (to use a very technical term) when it comes to the faith. People love sincerity when they find it.
 
Alizarin said:
A good idea is a good idea :yup: And the evidence for that one (pruning) is in the religious orders. The ones that are thriving with new recruits are the ones that are not wishy-washy (to use a very technical term) when it comes to the faith. People love sincerity when they find it.
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And not just within Catholicism.

Old line Protestants are dying while those that are more fundamentalist are growing. Same could be said for Islam, I suspect.

People want to believe in something solid and not mushy maybes…
 
RemoRH said:
Remember we are christian first then Catholic.
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I can’t help it. 😉 I have to have some fun here
Catholic Church, Catholic, & Christian are one. It’s not either / or 😉

Since Acts was written by St Luke, and St Luke wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, which Jesus sent [John 14:25-26 (Douay-Rheims Bible, John Chapter 14) , and since the HS doesn’t speak on His own but takes only from Jesus and gives it to St Luke and the others [John 16:12-15 (Douay-Rheims Bible, John Chapter 16) , then we could say Jesus inspired all of that. iow, Jesus is Catholic and His Church is the Catholic Church 🙂

I could give you or others could give you quotes from at least the 1st 500 years showing you the continuity of this message.
R:
Jesus wasnt catholic, wasnt even christian,
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:coffeeread: oh contraire. Now you know differently
R:
yet we are called to be like him. Insisting that catholic is “superior” in some way really justt isnt a very christian thing to say.
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I hate to spring it on you but this matter was settled 2000 years ago. Jesus started one Church [Matthew 16:16-19 (Douay-Rheims Bible, Matthew Chapter 16) giving all His promises to it. It’s the Catholic Church. Division from the Catholic Church is condemned. [Romans 16:17-20 (Douay-Rheims Bible, Romans Chapter 16) , [Galatians 5:19-21 (Douay-Rheims Bible, Galatians Chapter 5). As one can see, even after a few warnings (1 warning was enough) if one divides, or remains divided from Catholic Church, they won’t be going to heaven. As you can see from the links above, that comes from Jesus, the one who will judge all souls.

If one isn’t Catholic they are on the outside looking in. All those wonderful passages Protestants like to memorize, and take for themselves, have to be told, those passages were written to and for the Catholic Church. Look at Romans and Galatians. How could those passages mean ANYTHING if people who divide have all the promises those in the Church receive? The warning and condemnation would mean nothing.

Protestants have taken the Catholic bible, gutted it of 7 books, and taken it for themselves as if it is theirs. It was written in, by, for, and canonized by the Catholic Church. If outsiders to the Catholic Church like what they read there, they need to come into the Catholic Church.
R:
I am catholic, went through rcia and understood and believed not because I believed it was better than any other denomination but because it makes sense (although conversion can only be the work of the Spirit).
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The Catholic Church isn’t a denomination. There is no such thing as seperate but equal.
R:
Sunday our readings and sermon was about humbling ourselves, so as not be embarrassed at God’s massive party. If we keep our minds fixed on catholic is right and others are wrong, I believe we run the risk of loosing what it means to be Christian. We are called into a relationship with Christ, and that is what should be the focus, having Christ central, not Catholicism. As catholic I know and believe things, and as an angilcan I used to know and believe things. I dont think any of that matters because I’ve always had a relationship with Christ trying to keep Him central.
End of essay
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You have created an opposition here that is unacceptable. Our Lord and His Church are one. They are not seperate. He is there on the altar, in the tabernacle, because He is there in the Eucharist, His body blood soul and divinity is there. He is in His Church, the Catholic Church. Because He desires all to be saved, He desires all to be in His Catholic Church. Outside of which there is no salvation.
 
Tomdstone said:
However, I have heard the expression that someone has excommunicated himself by believing such and such. For example, there is the case of the ex-Jesuit seminarian, Gary Wills, who on a TV program said that he did not agree with the Catholic teaching on the Eucharist. And subsequently, a priest went on you tube to announce that the former Jesuit seminarian had excommunicated himself from the Roman Catholic Church.
youtube.com/watch?v=G775nlSQk1I
Does that mean that all those Catholics who do not object to artificial birth control or abortion rights have excommunicated themselves from the Roman Catholic Church?
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Certain things do cause one to be automatically excommunicated. Teaching heresy is one of them; procuring or assisting someone to procure an abortion is another.
 
steve_b said:
Because He desires all to be saved, He desires all to be in His Catholic Church. Outside of which there is no salvation.
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If so, why does the Roman Catholic Church allow non-Catholics to receive Holy Communion without converting. It is in the missal about Eastern church members who are not Catholic.
 
Tomdstone said:
If so, why does the Roman Catholic Church allow non-Catholics to receive Holy Communion without converting. It is in the missal about Eastern church members who are not Catholic.
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You’re Eastern Orthodox, Tom, and you know the answer.

What is Rome’s position regarding the matter? 🤷
 
Wow awesome response. Thanks. Will look up that Acts verse!
steve_b said:
I can’t help it. 😉 I have to have some fun here
Catholic Church, Catholic, & Christian are one. It’s not either / or 😉

Since Acts was written by St Luke, and St Luke wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, which Jesus sent [John 14:25-26 (Douay-Rheims Bible, John Chapter 14) , and since the HS doesn’t speak on His own but takes only from Jesus and gives it to St Luke and the others [John 16:12-15 (Douay-Rheims Bible, John Chapter 16) , then we could say Jesus inspired all of that. iow, Jesus is Catholic and His Church is the Catholic Church 🙂

I could give you or others could give you quotes from at least the 1st 500 years showing you the continuity of this message.

:coffeeread: oh contraire. Now you know differently

I hate to spring it on you but this matter was settled 2000 years ago. Jesus started one Church [Matthew 16:16-19 (Douay-Rheims Bible, Matthew Chapter 16) giving all His promises to it. It’s the Catholic Church. Division from the Catholic Church is condemned. [Romans 16:17-20 (Douay-Rheims Bible, Romans Chapter 16) , [Galatians 5:19-21 (Douay-Rheims Bible, Galatians Chapter 5). As one can see, even after a few warnings (1 warning was enough) if one divides, or remains divided from Catholic Church, they won’t be going to heaven. As you can see from the links above, that comes from Jesus, the one who will judge all souls.

If one isn’t Catholic they are on the outside looking in. All those wonderful passages Protestants like to memorize, and take for themselves, have to be told, those passages were written to and for the Catholic Church. Look at Romans and Galatians. How could those passages mean ANYTHING if people who divide have all the promises those in the Church receive? The warning and condemnation would mean nothing.

Protestants have taken the Catholic bible, gutted it of 7 books, and taken it for themselves as if it is theirs. It was written in, by, for, and canonized by the Catholic Church. If outsiders to the Catholic Church like what they read there, they need to come into the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church isn’t a denomination. There is no such thing as seperate but equal.

You have created an opposition here that is unacceptable. Our Lord and His Church are one. They are not seperate. He is there on the altar, in the tabernacle, because He is there in the Eucharist, His body blood soul and divinity is there. He is in His Church, the Catholic Church. Because He desires all to be saved, He desires all to be in His Catholic Church. Outside of which there is no salvation.
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RemoRH said:
Lol loving the patriotism but I think some people focus on the wrong this. Remember we are christian first then Catholic. Jesus wasnt catholic, wasnt even christian, yet we are called to be like him. Insisting that catholic is “superior” in some way really justt isnt a very christian thing to say.
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Only if it’s not really true.

If it is true, then it’s the most loving, most Christian, most charitable thing to say, so that people can have an opportunity to improve their situation.

It’s like pointing out to someone that their diamond is actually a zirconium, and offering them a real diamond in exchange for it - they don’t like to hear that they’ve been wearing fake jewelry all this time, but at the same time, once they get over being angry, it gives them the opportunity to exchange it for a real diamond.

🙂
 
jmcrae said:
It’s like pointing out to someone that their diamond is actually a zirconium, and offering them a real diamond in exchange for it - they don’t like to hear that they’ve been wearing fake jewelry all this time, but at the same time, once they get over being angry, it gives them the opportunity to exchange it for a real diamond.

🙂
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I’d wager that to the naked eye of the average person, it would be hard to tell a zirconium from a diamond. And it would be foolish to believe someone who walked up and told them their gem was not a real diamond–that person who walked up and looked at the gem and pronounced it a zirconium could very well be mistaken himself, regardless of his sincerity, charity, and confidence that he is correct. The wearer of the alleged zirconium could, however, subject the gem to various tests to definitively determine what it is.

And there’s the rub. Unlike doing lab tests on a gem, until after death, until our Judgment, there is no definitive test for which religion exactly is true. There is only the available evidence, which itself requires interpretation.
 
AbideWithMe said:
I’d wager that to the naked eye of the average person, it would be hard to tell a zirconium from a diamond. And it would be foolish to believe someone who walked up and told them their gem was not a real diamond–that person who walked up and looked at the gem and pronounced it a zirconium could very well be mistaken himself, regardless of his sincerity, charity, and confidence that he is correct. The wearer of the alleged zirconium could, however, subject the gem to various tests to definitively determine what it is.

And there’s the rub. Unlike doing lab tests on a gem, until after death, until our Judgment, there is no definitive test for which religion exactly is true. There is only the available evidence, which itself requires interpretation.
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Except that there ARE people who can tell the difference between real and fake gemstones, and the fake is of far less value than the real.

With theology, it’s even easier. 👍
 
Randy_Carson said:
"Provocative title, eh?

I hoped to get your attention, because I’m floating this argument which I put together this morning.
  1. Jesus only has one body.
  2. To be in heaven, one must be a member of the body of Christ
  3. The body of Christ is the Church.
  4. The Church instituted by Christ has a name – the Catholic Church.
    Therefore, to be in heaven, one must be a member of the Catholic Church.
I anticipate some possible objection to 1 and much rejection to 4, but let’s see how it unfolds.

I look forward to reading your thoughts for and against."
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Hi, Randy,

Thanks for posting some points for dialogue. However, is this your argument or did you get it from someone else, maybe a Catholic apologist?
 
rng1929 said:
Hi, Randy,

Thanks for posting some points for dialogue. However, is this your argument or did you get it from someone else, maybe a Catholic apologist?
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It’s patterned after a similar argument made by Jimmy Akin, but this was something that I was thinking about that morning and decided to “run it up the flag pole” here.

Who knew? 🤷
 
Tomdstone said:
If so, why does the Roman Catholic Church allow non-Catholics to receive Holy Communion without converting. It is in the missal about Eastern church members who are not Catholic.
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They don’t.

Non-Catholics are not invited to receive the Eucharist.
  • Protestant types, regardless of stripe
  • E Orthodox
  • non Christians
Here are reasons why that is.

Corinthians 11:27
“Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. **28 But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord. 30 Therefore are there many inform and weak amongyou, and many sleep”.

That passage is often used to teach the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. It’s also used to show the necessity for the body to be completely one. The body of Christ is His Church** [Eph 1:22-23] . Jesus and His Church are one. **If a person is seperated from the Catholic Church they are seperated from the body. And if they present themselves for the body and blood of Christ in the Eucharist, while being seperated from His Church, they can’t say Amen then, and receive Him without taking Him in an unworthy manner. So for their protection, the Church does NOT invite non Catholics to receive the Eucharist.

1 Cor 10
“16 The chalice of benediction, which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? And the bread, which we break, is it not the partaking of the body of the Lord? 17 For we, being many, are one bread, one body, all that partake of one bread.”

Again, non Catholics in the broadest terms, & regardless of stripe, aren’t one with the Catholic Church. They are NOT in communion so for them to partake in the Eucharist, is to acknowledge a union that doesn’t exist.

**Mt 5: **23
So if you are offering your gift at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

in short, asking God for forgiveness for ones own sins at the altar, while harboring grievances and division from the Catholic Church, is hypocritical . It’s receiving the Eucharist unworthily.

Any kind of exception to this is extraordianry and if it happens it’s because a person who is dieing asks
 
Randy_Carson said:
Except that there ARE people who can tell the difference between real and fake gemstones, and the fake is of far less value than the real.

With theology, it’s even easier. 👍
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But, Randy, it’s not the person–not even an expert gemologist-- himself who can definitively tell the difference; it’s lab tests. Say someone comes up to me, and utterly and earnestly convinced in himself, tells me my gem is fake. If I had reason to believe him, I’d go get it tested in a lab. And so, I’d be able to know if he was doing me a favor or very possibly not doing me a favor despite his earnestness.

And that’s my point, basically: our religious beliefs are not subject to being proven correct by lab tests, so I’m more or less just pointing out that flaw in the previous analogy. Though person B may be utterly convinced himself that person A’s beliefs are wrong and that he needs to inform person A of this, in fact person B may be wrong himself. Truth is absolute and not relative, but that doesn’t keep either person B or person A from being mistaken. I believe the best we can do is humbly and kindly lay out on the table the evidence we have for our respective beliefs.
 
AbideWithMe said:
But, Randy, it’s not the person–not even an expert gemologist-- himself who can definitively tell the difference; it’s lab tests. Say someone comes up to me, and utterly and earnestly convinced in himself, tells me my gem is fake. If I had reason to believe him, I’d go get it tested in a lab. And so, I’d be able to know if he was doing me a favor or very possibly not doing me a favor despite his earnestness.
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Right. So, if someone says to you, “Protestantism is a false religion; you should become Catholic,” your correct response would in fact be to see why he thinks so, and test the claim for yourself with an open mind.
 
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