To Be in Heaven, You Must Be Catholic

[yogosans14]

But what constitutes the “etc”?

Amen!

Well the essiental doctrines of the Christian Faith.

1. the Deity of Christ, 2) Salvation by Grace, and 3) Resurrection of Christ, 4) the gospel, and 5) monotheism. These are the doctrines the Bible says are necessary. Though there are many other important doctrines, these five are the ones that are declared by Scripture to be essential (I call them primary essentials since the Bible declares them as essential). A non-regenerate person (i.e., Mormon or Jehovah’s Witness, atheist, Muslim), will deny one or more of these essential doctrines. Please note that there are other derivative doctrines of scripture that become necessary also, the Trinity being one.

 

[Tomdstone]

All of the above have definitive teachings.*

That there are dissidents on these beliefs is no indictment of the unity in doctrine that exists.

1. We need not believe in it.
2. We do not exclude recourse to it.
3. Yes (Please cite where Eastern Catholics say “no”. And who represents these Eastern Catholics?)
4. There is no “should” but we “may”.
5. Racial slavery–never. Indentured servitude–yes.
6. Both/and

1. If you go to a Byzantine Catholic Liturgy, you will hear the creed said without the filioque. Byzantine Catholics say the creed without the filioque, Roman Catholics say it with the filioque.
2. The Roman Catholic newspaper the Tidings had an article a while back about capital punishment. The priest author of the article said that Christians must oppose the death penalty. Some Catholics favor the death penalty, others oppose it. this indicates division on this issue, not unity.
3. Some people believe in Limbo, others do not. That indicates division, not unity.
4. I don’t understand. is the fire of purgatory similar to the fire of hell, or is it to be taken figuratively and not literally, There is no unity on this issue.
5. Then how do you explain the papal encyclical Dum Diversas issued in June 1452 by Pope Nicholas V, that is credited by some with ushering in the West African slave trade?

 

[Tomdstone]

And these things rise to the level of infant baptism, ordination of women and practicing homosexuals, and the classic once saved always saved - none of which Protestants agree on?.

I would say that they are important. Just ask someone who was a slave (Recently the FBI crashed a sex slave ring in California) or ask someone on death row if he thinks that capital punishment is as important to him as infant baptism. Do you really believe that infant baptism is important for someone who is about to be executed in a few days?

 

[steve_b]

The Lord really spoke to my heart today about his infinite love for us, he love us so much that he isnt going to look at a non catholic and think of them as any different from a Protestant.

So Jesus contradicts Himself John 17:20-23 for Protestants? Jesus wants ZERO division. Division of any kind is against His Divine Will.
y:

Romans 10:9-10
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
9 because,*** if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.*** 10 For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved.

I’m saved, so are Catholic Christians. Enough strife

One of those great summary statements for those already in the Catholic Church.

However, for those who divide from this Church Romans 16:17-20 , Galatians 5:19-21 , it’s bad news for them.

as you know, (if you don’t know then say so) the Catholic Church is the only one Jesus established. If one resists being a member, then how is it one can say Jesus is Lord of their life?

 

[yogosans14]

So Jesus contradicts Himself John 17:20-23 for Protestants? Jesus wants ZERO division. Division of any kind is against His Divine Will.

One of those great summary statements for those already in the Catholic Church.

However, for those who divide from this Church Romans 16:17-20 , Galatians 5:19-21 , it’s bad news for them.

as you know, (if you don’t know then say so) the Catholic Church is the only one Jesus established. If one resists being a member, then how is it one can say Jesus is Lord of their life?

Funny you say this while many other Catholics would disagree with you on that, weres the Unity there?My relationship with God has nothing to do with a Church. If going to a Church makes you feel safe, then so be it. I put my trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, not a building with a guy who sits in a golden chair.

 

[Tomdstone]

1. Yes (Please cite where Eastern Catholics say “no”. And who represents these Eastern Catholics?)

Please go to page 62 of
melkite.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/LITURGY2009.pdf
and read:
“And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, who
proceeds from the Father, who together with the Father
and the Son is worshipped and glorified, who spoke
through the prophets. And in one, holy, catholic, and
apostolic Church.”
melkite.org/faith/faith-worship/new-english-translation-of-the-divine-liturgy

However, the Roman Catholic Church has a creed which says that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and from the Son.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Randy, Randy, Randy… I guess you haven’t read Bonhoeffer’s Discipleship (aka The Cost of Discipleship). Getting real, when is any kind of Christian faith not costly?

Of course I did. But it’s been a few years.

The Once-Saved, Always-Saved mentality comes to mind, however…

 

[Randy_Carson]

Well the essiental doctrines of the Christian Faith.

1. the Deity of Christ, 2) Salvation by Grace, and 3) Resurrection of Christ, 4) the gospel, and 5) monotheism. These are the doctrines the Bible says are necessary. Though there are many other important doctrines, these five are the ones that are declared by Scripture to be essential (I call them primary essentials since the Bible declares them as essential). A non-regenerate person (i.e., Mormon or Jehovah’s Witness, atheist, Muslim), will deny one or more of these essential doctrines. Please note that there are other derivative doctrines of scripture that become necessary also, the Trinity being one.

And now you are into defining (for yourself) what the “bare essentials” or “minimum daily requirements” are.

However, how do you know for sure that you haven’t missed something?

Would the guidance of the Church be helpful in making sure you are on the right track?

 

[Randy_Carson]

I would say that they are important. Just ask someone who was a slave (Recently the FBI crashed a sex slave ring in California) or ask someone on death row if he thinks that capital punishment is as important to him as infant baptism. Do you really believe that infant baptism is important for someone who is about to be executed in a few days?

Tom-

Having read many, many of your posts, I see that your primary objective is to contradict almost everything any Catholic poster says even if you must use extreme examples like the one above to do it.

That said, you have failed twice to respond directly to the material I posted regarding the difference between disunity in Protestantism and disunity in Catholicism.

You may disagree, of course.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Funny you say this while many other Catholics would disagree with you on that, weres the Unity there?My relationship with God has nothing to do with a Church. If going to a Church makes you feel safe, then so be it. I put my trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, not a building with a guy who sits in a golden chair.

You love Jesus? Great.

Do you also love the Church that He promised to build (Mt. 16:18-19)?

And have you taken the time to learn exactly where to find that Church? What it looks like? Who Jesus left in charge of it?

 

[PRmerger]

I more or less agree, PRmerger–there’s no need to take someone’s efforts at evangelization as a reason for offense.

I hope my above post will explain better where I’m coming from regarding the real/fake diamond analogy.

 

[PRmerger]

Well the essiental doctrines of the Christian Faith.

1. the Deity of Christ, 2) Salvation by Grace, and 3) Resurrection of Christ, 4) the gospel, and 5) monotheism. These are the doctrines the Bible says are necessary. Though there are many other important doctrines, these five are the ones that are declared by Scripture to be essential (I call them primary essentials since the Bible declares them as essential). A non-regenerate person (i.e., Mormon or Jehovah’s Witness, atheist, Muslim), will deny one or more of these essential doctrines. Please note that there are other derivative doctrines of scripture that become necessary also, the Trinity being one.

Firstly, what Bible verses tell you these are essentials? (Please note, I do not need verses which state the Deity of Christ, Salvation by Grace, etc. I need the verses which state that these are essential doctrines of the Christian faith).

Secondly, what do you mean by “the gospel”? Isn’t that too general? Could you be more specific?

Thirdly, can one be saved if he denies a derivative doctrine, or only if he denies an essential one?

 

[PRmerger]

1. If you go to a Byzantine Catholic Liturgy, you will hear the creed said without the filioque. Byzantine Catholics say the creed without the filioque, Roman Catholics say it with the filioque.

If they are Catholic, then they must profess the filioque. Even if they don’t include it in their creed.

1. The Roman Catholic newspaper the Tidings had an article a while back about capital punishment. The priest author of the article said that Christians must oppose the death penalty. Some Catholics favor the death penalty, others oppose it. this indicates division on this issue, not unity.

Again, what “some Catholics favor” ought not be confused with what the CC teaches.

1. Some people believe in Limbo, others do not. That indicates division, not unity.6. I don’t understand. is the fire of purgatory similar to the fire of hell, or is it to be taken figuratively and not literally, There is no unity on this issue.

Fair enough. So there are a few things that we are permitted to have a diversity of opinion on.

That is quite different from the tens of thousands of differing Christian doctrines that have resulted in chaos and confusion.

Now, thanks to their divorce from the Magisterium, we do not know if a Christian can believe that baptism saves…or is an ordinance…and ought to be administered in infancy…or as an adult…in Jesus name alone…or using the Trinitarian formula.

Thanks to their divorce from the Magisterium, we do not know if a Christian can worship on the Lord’s day…or on the Sabbath…can have ordained women…or a male-only priesthood…can divorce and re-marry…or view this as adultery.

That is what the divorce from the Magisterium has wrought.

1. Then how do you explain the papal encyclical Dum Diversas issued in June 1452 by Pope Nicholas V, that is credited by some with ushering in the West African slave trade?

Please cite the specific language/text that “ushered in the West African slave trade”.

 

[PRmerger]

My relationship with God has nothing to do with a Church. If going to a Church makes you feel safe, then so be it. I put my trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, not a building with a guy who sits in a golden chair.

If you know anything at all about Jesus Christ, it is because of a Church telling you about Jesus. Specifically, the CC.

So the fact that you know Jesus died and rose from the dead for you…is because the CC told you this.

The fact that you know that the Gospel of Mark is inspired…is because the CC told you this.

So it seems particularly ungrateful and expectful to take what the CC has given you, and then say, “I don’t need you!”.

 

[ffg]

The point I was making is that there are some sins (Paul specifically mentioned) that will send one to hell if one dies with them on their soul. One of those sins mentioned in a string of sins mentioned in Galatians 5:19-21 , is to condemn dividing from the Church. The only Church Jesus established is the Catholic Church.

I wrote

“If one dissents / divides / leaves the Catholic Church, and remains so, they will not inherit the kingdom of God.”
http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11152610&postcount=669

I’m not the one telling anyone they are going to hell.

While Paul wrote Galatians 5:19-21 it’s the Holy Spirit inspiring Paul to write. Which means it’s ultimately from Jesus because the HS takes from Jesus when He’s teaching others.John 16:12-15

Therefore, Jesus the judge of all souls, is telling us in advance, through the HS, through Paul, how He will judge those sins mentioned in Galatians 5:19-21 if one dies in any of them. IOW, all those sins mentioned are mortal sins. And in the case mentioned, the warning from Jesus, don’t die seperated from the Catholic Church.

The point I was making wasn’t related to the education aspect. Thus the confusion I mentioned in my last. I’ll switch gears and address your focus point.

Education is great, but we have to educate based on the whole subject with clarity. A quick few lines from a letter in the bible is not in the entire context of the teaching and can confuse.

For instance, if I wasn’t Catholic, I might not know what you mean by soul in a state with those sins. Thus if I did any of them, I might not qualify for the state of mortal sin as I might not ‘KNOW they were wrong and do them anyway’ (Obviously, they are grave matter).

To educate on this point would be to educate with the definition of a mortal sin in hand (grave, know, do).

The case chosen somewhat brings us back about 40 pages in this thread (or more) where there was a discussion if a ‘well-catechized’ Catholic, could then choose something else as a Christian religion and be ok.

That argument put forth is flawed as a well-catechized Catholic would be one that partake’s in the Church’s teachings. Thus participating in sacraments.

One who does not participate, is not well catechized. But that is not a statement on the soul’s future.

Thus going back to your example, if there was rejection of the Church, to know if the sin is mortal is God’s to know, above our pay grade. Therefore, if the person is breathing they have the ability to repent.

In summary, absolutely the straight forward message of ‘do this and die forever’ can be an important teaching tool. But let’s be sure to wrap it in the full context of the message so people can best understand.

To be sure, anyone reading our back and forth should have a good understanding of mortal sin now and know a list they can evaluate and know the place to go if they want to give their soul a cleanse.

Good stuff.

 

[Alizarin]

So Jesus contradicts Himself John 17:20-23 for Protestants? Jesus wants ZERO division. Division of any kind is against His Divine Will.

When He says, “That they all may be one…they may be made perfect in one” it points to unity in the future, but doesn’t mean necessarily unity actually exists in the present.

My relationship with God has nothing to do with a Church. If going to a Church makes you feel safe, then so be it. I put my trust in the Lord Jesus Christ,

“The Once-Saved, Always-Saved mentality comes to mind, however…”

I have to disagree with you there. Personally, that kind of trust in God cost me a lot…a lot of my pride, the pride that encouraged me to think I could earn my way into heaven.

Would the guidance of the Church be helpful in making sure you are on the right track?

Many of us Protestants first need evidence that the RCC is on the right track.

So the fact that you know Jesus died and rose from the dead for you…is because the CC told you this.

I don’t know that He did, but I believe that He did (if it was a matter of knowing, faith would have no role in the religious life).

The fact that you know that the Gospel of Mark is inspired…is because the CC told you this.

As to Mark, again I don’t know, I believe, and I believed it was inspired before any formal education from the CC.

So it seems particularly ungrateful and expectful to take what the CC has given you, and then say, “I don’t need you!”.

And when I look at what it gave me over the years, my heart doesn’t grow fond. It grows cold. Which is why I left the CC. But if it works for others, good for them. We’re all brothers (and sisters) in Christ, right?

 

[yogosans14]

You love Jesus? Great.

Do you also love the Church that He promised to build (Mt. 16:18-19)?

And have you taken the time to learn exactly where to find that Church? What it looks like? Who Jesus left in charge of it?

Ephesians 2:19-20
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
19 Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners; but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and the domestics of God,
20 Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone:

2 Samuel 22:2
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
2 And he said: The Lord is my rock, and my strength, and my saviour.

The LORD is my rock!Hes the cheif cornerstone!Not Saint Peter!Matthew 16:18-19 is what Catholics cling to. If only they had more scriptures to back up this claim.

 

[yogosans14]

Firstly, what Bible verses tell you these are essentials? (Please note, I do not need verses which state the Deity of Christ, Salvation by Grace, etc. I need the verses which state that these are essential doctrines of the Christian faith).

Secondly, **what do you mean by “the gospel”? ** Isn’t that too general? Could you be more specific?

Thirdly, can one be saved if he denies a derivative doctrine, or only if he denies an essential one?

Oh I’m sorry, if you dont know what the Gospel is then go ask your Priest he will be happy to inform you

John 8:24
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
24 Therefore I said to you, that you shall die in your sins. For if you believe not that** I am**** he, you shall die in your sin.**

If you reject who Jesus truly is, both God and man then you are dead in your sins so its essiental. Salvation by grace?

Ephesians 2:8-9
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God;
9 Not of works, that no man may glory.

 

[ffg]

Ephesians 2:19-20
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
19 Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners; but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and the domestics of God,
20 Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone:

2 Samuel 22:2
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
2 And he said: The Lord is my rock, and my strength, and my saviour.

The LORD is my rock!Hes the cheif cornerstone!Not Saint Peter!Matthew 16:18-19 is what Catholics cling to. If only they had more scriptures to back up this claim.

I love your quotes and emphasis!

Analysis of lines:
Eph 2:
19 - Fellow citizens with the saints! (The Church Triumphant!)

20 - Cornerstone! (note the foundation - apostles, prophet’s) Considering He told Peter to head His Church, it is quite logical that Christ is the Cornerstone… of His Church!

Where is this Church?! Look for the Apostles and prophets!

Sam 22:2

Amen! If he is our rock should we do what he says?! Yes! Now let’s learn what he said to do and do our best!

If it’s to be ready for something in the future, there must be some preparation guidelines. Maybe even fairly detailed. They might help us understand the importance of today and the treasure of time.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I have to disagree with you there. Personally, that kind of trust in God cost me a lot…a lot of my pride, the pride that encouraged me to think I could earn my way into heaven.

Since Catholics do not believe that they can earn their way into heaven (and the Church has NEVER taught that you could), we would not disagree with you. However, I think there are possibly some Protestants who will be in for a rude awakening when they discover that they won’t be going to heaven after all because more than a quick trip down the aisle at a revival meeting was required.

Our OSAS friends are in a difficult situation for they cannot know for sure right now if they REALLY have that saving faith or not, and they won’t know this side of heaven. They realize (or should, if they are honest) that they could be overcome at some point in the future…perhaps their time of testing has not yet come.

This uncertainty is what drives much of the “good works” of Protestantism—the evangelizing, the tithing, the missionary work, etc. They do these things, in part, to give evidence that they have saving faith that perseveres to the end.

This is the treadmill they are on—and then they condemn Catholics because they mistakenly believe Catholics think they can earn their way into heaven! They attribute this false idea to Catholics because many of them are actually attempting to do that very thing themselves!

Many of us Protestants first need evidence that the RCC is on the right track.

Of course. All of converts go through that. Stick around…we’ll help you find your way home as you learn here what you didn’t know before.