To Be in Heaven, You Must Be Catholic

[chimo]

That is up to God to decide. If you want to be sure, best to do it the way we were told to do it.

Yes, we have a merciful God, but Jesus didn’t command the Church to go out and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, just for grins. He really wants us to get baptized. To presume one will be saved through Baptism of Desire is a sin in itself; the sin of presumption. Only God knows the true desire of the heart.

God has a tremendous reservoir of Graces for everyone on the Planet be they Christian or not. These reservoir of Graces for the non-Christians are “banked” for them when it is the right time for God to give to them. If people have not heard the saving message of Christ these Graces are still available for them at their passing. How does God do this? Very simply He receives these Graces from those who come to Him in Holy Communion. When a faithful Christian receives the Lord Jesus at every Mass and Divine Liturgy you are enabling God to bank some of His Graces for those who do not come. St. Paul says in the Scriptures that a believer sanctifies the unbeliever so that in effect the believing Church can sanctify those who do not yet believe. The same principal applies in His feedings of the 5000 and 4000 (which points to us as signs for the Eucharist) when tremendous amount of food was left over after Jesus has fed them. This illustrates to us that God saves what is left over for others be they Christian or not. Even the great Doctor of the Church, St. Gertrude said in her writings that the Lord Jesus told her that when someone receives Him in Holy Communion at the Mass and the Divine Liturgy something good happens to everyone on the planet. Certainly God can save those who are non-Christian by those same Graces the believing Christians are acquiring for Him when they receive Him in Holy Communion. He banks the Holy Spirit for those other people who have not yet received personally the Gospel message.

 

[Tomdstone]

Do you have a reference?

Cardinal Walter Kasper: “… the old theory of substitution [that is, the theory of the New Covenant substituting for the Old] is gone since the Second Vatican Council… Therefore, the Church believes that Judaism, i.e., the faithful response of the Jewish people to God’s irrevocable covenant, is salvific for them, because God is faithful to his promises.” (Address at the 17th meeting of the International Catholic-Jewish Liaison Committee, New York, May 1, 2001.)

 

[yogosans14]

Did the Bible fall from the sky? No? :nope:

Then who wrote it?

The Holy Spirit inspired those holy men of the Early Church who were true authors (and not mere secretaries). Originally known as members of “the Way”, they were first called “Christians” in Antioch - the same place where** they began to refer to the Church as the Catholic Church before the end of the first century and the death of the last Apostle, John.
**
Thus, the Bible was written by Catholics under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. :yup:

“These are the facts of case, and it is undisputed.” :yyeess:

No. The first Christians are in the book of Acts and they were Jews. They met in their homes. Those were the first churches and Christians. Catholics were not heard of for hundreds of years later.

 

[ffg]

Deleted.

 

[Randy_Carson]

No. The first Christians are in the book of Acts and they were Jews. They met in their homes. Those were the first churches and Christians. Catholics were not heard of for hundreds of years later.

Not so, yogosan. Here are the historical facts:

Earliest Use of the Name “Catholic Church”

The early Church - the Church founded by Christ as promised in Matthew 16:18 - was that which was originally known as “the Way” (cf. Acts 24:14). Later, those individuals who followed Christ began to be called “Christians” beginning at Antioch (cf. Acts 11:26). As early as 107 A.D., those same individuals referred to themselves collectively as the “Catholic Church”. In a letter to the Church of Smyrna, Ignatius of Antioch wrote,

“You must all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery (priest) as you would the Apostles. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans, A.D. 107, [8,1])

Notice that Ignatius does not introduce the term “Catholic Church”; instead he uses it in a manner suggesting that the name was already in use and familiar to his audience. This further suggests that the name, Catholic Church, had to have been coined much earlier in order to have achieved wide circulation by the time of this writing. In other words, the Christian assembly was calling itself the Catholic Church during the lifetime of the last Apostle, John, who died near the end of the first century. John, the beloved disciple, may have thought of himself as a member of the Catholic Church!

The Catholic Church began with Peter and the Apostles and continued without interruption or cessation through their disciples (Ignatius, Irenaeus, Polycarp, Clement, Justin Martyr, etc.) down to the present day. As a side note, it appears that the believers in Antioch may have coined both terms still in use today: “Christian” and “Catholic Church” – terms they used to describe the one body of believers in Christ.

Protestant Scholar on the use of the Proper Name "Catholic"

One Protestant author who is honest about this history is the renowned Church historian, J. N. D. Kelly. Kelly dates the usage of the name “Catholic” after the death of the Apostle John, but he acknowledges that the original Church founded by Jesus called itself the “Catholic Church”.

“As regards ‘Catholic,’ its original meaning was ‘universal’ or ‘general’ … As applied to the Church, its primary significance was to underline its universality as opposed to the local character of the individual congregations. Very quickly, however, in the latter half of the second century at latest, we find it conveying the suggestion that the Catholic is the true Church as distinct from heretical congregations. . . . What these early Fathers were envisaging was almost always the empirical, visible society; they had little or no inkling of the distinction which was later to become important between a visible and an invisible Church” (J. N. D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines, 5th ed. [San Francisco: Harper, 1978], 190f).

 

[yogosans14]

Sure. No one has argued anything to the contrary.

What we are arguing, however, is that you give tacit submission to the authority of the Catholic Church to tell you what* is* Scripture.

So it is particularly ungrateful for a person to reject the Catholic Church while accepting her book, the Holy Bible.

I dont “reject” the Catholic Church just because I feel like it, I “reject” it because I find NO biblical basis whatsoever for Purgatory, the immuaculate conception, the assumption of Mary, Mary being the queen of Heaven, Papal infability, Faith AND works, mortal and venial sins…

 

[Isaiah45_9]

No. The first Christians are in the book of Acts and they were Jews. They met in their homes. Those were the first churches and Christians. Catholics were not heard of for hundreds of years later.

I’ve never heard that before

They met in their houses and in secret in most places because they were drastically persecuted. tortured and murdered.

How about the gentiles mentioned in Scriptures themselves? While the majority were Jews in the beginning, the Gentiles added to the Church’s ranks rapidly.

And whether you want to believe it - they were Catholics and Peter was Bishop of Rome whether you want to believe it.

I suspect you don’t know what Catholic means…

And what is the history of the Church according to yogosans?

 

[Randy_Carson]

I dont “reject” the Catholic Church just because I feel like it, I “reject” it because I find NO biblical basis whatsoever for Purgatory, the immuaculate conception, the assumption of Mary, Mary being the queen of Heaven, Papal infability, Faith AND works, mortal and venial sins…

Ah…the classic litany. Let’s begin to unravel the facts, and we really MUST adress these one at a time so that you are not left in doubt as to the truth of the Catholic position, okay?

Now, where to begin? Ah…

Sin that is Mortal Proved from Scripture

1 John 5:16-17
16If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. 17All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

Common sense tells us that there is a big difference between stealing a paperclip from a colleague’s desk and committing genocide. Yet the Protestant pretends that they are equally heinous and equally deserving of eternal damnation. This creates a false piety. Instead of making all sins more serious, it actually trivializes the most grievous sins. After all “In for a penny, in for a pound.” If I am damned anyway for trivia, I might as well be damned for something really juicy. That’s human nature!

Protestants also do not realize how unbiblical their idea that all sin is equally heinous is. We have the quotation from St. John given above which should have been proof enough, but there is more. If all sins are equally bad then in the OT the penalty for every sin would have been the same: DEATH. Instead, the Old Testament describes several ways of atoning for sins and making things right that demonstrate there are different degrees of sin. Only the most heinous sins such as murder or apostasy require the death penalty.

So once again, by using purely man-made standards, the Protestant makes void the word of God.

John 19:11
11 Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it had not been given to you from above. For this reason the one who handed me over to you has the greater sin.”

If there is a “greater” sin, then there must be a “lesser” sin, also.

 

[bill99]

How is Salvation guaranteed?

Not all those who profess to be Catholics will be saved; just as not all who say: Lord, Lord - will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Christ never said you have to become catholic to enter the kingdom of god this part you have right. Instead to be like children

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I dont “reject” the Catholic Church just because I feel like it, I “reject” it because I find NO biblical basis whatsoever for Purgatory, the immuaculate conception, the assumption of Mary, Mary being the queen of Heaven, Papal infability, Faith AND works, mortal and venial sins…

Never heard that before either

And who determined that there has to be a biblical basis for them?

And who determined the Bible?

I had to re-read Matthew 28

The Commissioning of the Disciples

16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 And when they saw him they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 **teaching **them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

Ok, wheeew… I thought I missed the part where the disciples were given a Bible.

 

[bill99]

Never heard that before either

And who determined that there has to be a biblical basis for them?

And who determined the Bible?

I had to re-read Matthew 28

The Commissioning of the Disciples

16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 And when they saw him they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 **teaching **them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

Ok, wheeew… I thought I missed the part where the disciples were given a Bible.

what else can you trust? men can say anything they want but is it true? what are you willing to put your faith into?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Christ never said you have to become catholic to enter the kingdom of god this part you have right. Instead to be like children

Are we baptized into Christ? Into His death so that we may be raised with Him?

Where and how are we baptized? Are we baptized into the Body of Christ?

Sure. And the Body of Christ named itself the “Catholic Church” before the end of the first century as I just posted above to yogosans.

 

[Randy_Carson]

what else can you trust? men can say anything they want but is it true? what are you willing to put your faith into?

Well, you can put your faith where Jesus expected you to place it: in Him and in the Church which He promised to build upon Peter the Rock.

He did not leave us without a shepherd; Peter and his successors, the popes, along with the Bishops are Christ’s vicars on earth.

 

[yogosans14]

Not so, yogosan. Here are the historical facts:

Origin of the name “Catholic Church’

Originally Christians weren’t even called Christians. They were called “disciples” (i.e., “students”) of Jesus of Nazareth. Later, in the city of Antioch, they received the name “Christians” (Acts 11:26). This probably happened in the A.D. 30s. This term spread very quickly—probably to the chagrin of those Jewish individuals who did not wish to acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah (Christ).

Ultimately, however, different groups began to break off from the Christian community, falling into either heresy or schism. These groups still wished to represent themselves as Christian—and many of them were, retaining valid baptism and a profession of faith in Christ. Consequently, a new word was needed to distinguish the Christians belonging to the Church that Christ founded from those belonging to the churches that had split off from it.

The term that was picked was kataholos, which means according to the whole or universal in Greek. The thought was apparently that these were Christians who believed and practiced according to what body of Christians as a whole did, in contrast to what some particular group thought or did. Over the course of time, kataholos came to be represented by the parallel English word “Catholic.”

Ignatius of Antioch did not introduce kataholos. However, his letters contain the earliest known uses of it. It may well have been used in other Christian writings prior to this, but we have simply lost them. It certainly was in general use in speech before this point, because Ignatius writes in such a way that he already expects his readers to know this term and what it means. He also uses the term in more than one of his letters, meaning that he expects people in more than one place to know the term.

This indicates that in his day—at the beginning of the second century (circa A.D. 107)—the term was already in widespread use. For it to be used in such a broad manner, it would have required some time to pass into currency in the Christian community, meaning that the term probably was coined sometime in the second half of the first century. We don’t know who first used it, but it was a suitable description of the Church Christ founded and so was already in general use by the time Ignatius wrote.

No. The Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church weren’t born till AD 1054 after the Great Schism, before which there was a single Church of the Roman Empire from which both Churches sprang from, and even this Church that preceded the Roman Catholic Church might not have been the first established Church.

There were/are several ancient Churches that weren’t part of the Roman Empire. For instance, the Coptic Church was traditionally founded by Mark the Evangelist in circa AD 42, and, according to tradition, Apostle Thomas spread Christianity to the Jewish diaspora in India in AD 52.

 

[bill99]

Are we baptized into Christ? Into His death so that we may be raised with Him?

Where and how are we baptized? Are we baptized into the Body of Christ?

Sure. And the Body of Christ named itself the “Catholic Church” before the end of the first century as I just posted above to yogosans.

yes I agree the Catholics are Christian and are the people of god and admire the church because they stay steadfast to the truth. but are not other Christian baptised in the name of the father, son and holy spirit?

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Christ never said you have to become catholic to enter the kingdom of god this part you have right. Instead to be like children

He also didn’t say anything about the Trinity 11

He did say a lot more than just be like children:

Matthew 4:17, 5:3, 5:10, 5:19-20, 7:21-23, 8:5-13, 10:5-7, 11:11-15, 13:10-11, 13:24-30,
13:31-35, 13:44-53, 16:18-19, 18:1-5, 18:21-35, 19:8-15, 19:23-24, 20:1-16, 25:1-13, 25:14-30.

 

[Randy_Carson]

No. The Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church weren’t born till AD 1054 after the Great Schism, before which there was a single Church of the Roman Empire from which both Churches sprang from, and even this Church that preceded the Roman Catholic Church might not have been the first established Church.

There were/are several ancient Churches that weren’t part of the Roman Empire. For instance, the Coptic Church was traditionally founded by Mark the Evangelist in circa AD 42, and, according to tradition, Apostle Thomas spread Christianity to the Jewish diaspora in India in AD 52.

Read what these Early Church Fathers say about the Catholic Church and note carefully the dates of their writings:

Ignatius of Antioch

Wherever the bishop appears, let the congregation be there also. Just as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is manifest, therefore, that we should look upon the bishop even as we would look upon the Lord Himself, standing, as he does, before the Lord. As therefore the Lord did nothing without the Father, being united to Him, neither by Himself nor by the apostles, so neither do ye anything without the bishop and presbyters. Be ye subject to the bishop as to the Lord, for ‘he watches for your souls, as one that shall give account to God.’ In like manner, let all reverence the deacons as an appointment of Jesus Christ, and the bishop as Jesus Christ, who is the Son of the Father, and the presbyters as the Sanhedrin of God, and assembly of the apostles. Apart from these, there is no Church. See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. He who honors the bishop has been honored by God; he who does anything without the knowledge of the bishop, does [in reality] serve the devil. Give ye heed to the bishop, that God also may give heed to you. Be ye subject to the bishop, to the presbyters, and to the deacons.” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans, 8:1, [A.D. 107],)

Irenaeus

The Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said (Against Heresies 1:10 [A.D. 189**]).

Augustine

“We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church, which is Catholic and which is called Catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies. When heretics or the adherents of schisms talk about her, not among themselves but with strangers, willy-nilly they call her nothing else but Catholic. They will not be understood unless they distinguish her by this name, which the whole world employs in her regard.” (The True Religion 7:12, [A.D. 390]).

“[T]he very name of Catholic . . . belongs to this Church alone . . . so much so that, although all heretics want to be called ‘catholic,’ when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house” (Against the Letter of Mani Called `The Foundation’ 4:5 397 A.D.]).

“If you should find someone who does not yet believe in the gospel what would you [Mani] answer him when he says, “I do not believe”? Indeed, I would not believe the gospel myself if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.” (Against the Letter of Mani Called `The Foundation’ 4:5 397 A.D.]).

+++

I have lots more quotes like these if you need them.

 

[yogosans14]

Ah…the classic litany. Let’s begin to unravel the facts, and we really MUST adress these one at a time so that you are not left in doubt as to the truth of the Catholic position, okay?

Now, where to begin? Ah…

Sin that is Mortal Proved from Scripture

1 John 5:16-17
16If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. 17All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

Common sense tells us that there is a big difference between stealing a paperclip from a colleague’s desk and committing genocide. Yet the Protestant pretends that they are equally heinous and equally deserving of eternal damnation. This creates a false piety. Instead of making all sins more serious, it actually trivializes the most grievous sins. After all “In for a penny, in for a pound.” If I am damned anyway for trivia, I might as well be damned for something really juicy. That’s human nature!

Protestants also do not realize how unbiblical their idea that all sin is equally heinous is. We have the quotation from St. John given above which should have been proof enough, but there is more. If all sins are equally bad then in the OT the penalty for every sin would have been the same: DEATH. Instead, the Old Testament describes several ways of atoning for sins and making things right that demonstrate there are different degrees of sin. Only the most heinous sins such as murder or apostasy require the death penalty.

So once again, by using purely man-made standards, the Protestant makes void the word of God.

John 19:11
11 Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it had not been given to you from above. For this reason the one who handed me over to you has the greater sin.”

If there is a “greater” sin, then there must be a “lesser” sin, also.

Many commentaries have been written on this passage. Perhaps the one you would be most interested in, in this case at least, is “The Jerome Biblical Commentary”, written by Roman Catholic scholars. Here, from the section on 1 John 5:16-17, the commentary states:

16-17. A most appropriate prayer for the Christian is for the forgiveness of his brother’s sins, that God “may give him life” when he has put himself in danger of eternal death; this prayer serves as a good example of what is “according to his will.” The author does not counsel prayer, however, for one who has sinned “unto death,” for the presumption is that it is not according to God’s will to pardon such a person. all unrighteousness is sin, but there is a sin not unto death: By a sin “unto death” the author evidently means some extraordinary sin (not necessarily specified in his own mind or in those of his readers) so terrible to contemplate that forgiveness, morally speaking, cannot be expected (cf. Str-B 3, 779). He does not mean simply mortal sin as distinguished from venial sin, for the “sins not unto death” in this context also include mortal sins. It is possible that he has in mind the activity of the “Antichrists” previously mentioned (2:18-29). The NT singles out various sins as being in such a category apart (cf. Mk 3:29 par.; Heb 6:4-8; 10:26-31).

Brown, R. E., Fitzmyer, J. A., & Murphy, R. E. (1996, c1968). The Jerome Biblical commentary. Englewood Cliffs, N.J.: Prentice-Hall.

 

[bill99]

Well, you can put your faith where Jesus expected you to place it: in Him and in the Church which He promised to build upon Peter the Rock.

He did not leave us without a shepherd; Peter and his successors, the popes, along with the Bishops are Christ’s vicars on earth.

I understand that and I think you can trust them but I suppose my Lutheran upbringing is clouding my mind

 

[bill99]

He also didn’t say anything about the Trinity 11

He did say a lot more than just be like children:

Matthew 4:17, 5:3, 5:10, 5:19-20, 7:21-23, 8:5-13, 10:5-7, 11:11-15, 13:10-11, 13:24-30,
13:31-35, 13:44-53, 16:18-19, 18:1-5, 18:21-35, 19:8-15, 19:23-24, 20:1-16, 25:1-13, 25:14-30.

I know he said a lot more I was just lazy to write all of them