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dronald
Guest
Jamee 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
So, who should I trust?
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So, who should I trust?
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yogosans14
Guest
Read what these Early Church Fathers say about the Catholic Church and note carefully the dates of their writings:
Ignatius of Antioch
Wherever the bishop appears, let the congregation be there also. Just as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is manifest, therefore, that we should look upon the bishop even as we would look upon the Lord Himself, standing, as he does, before the Lord. As therefore the Lord did nothing without the Father, being united to Him, neither by Himself nor by the apostles, so neither do ye anything without the bishop and presbyters. Be ye subject to the bishop as to the Lord, for ‘he watches for your souls, as one that shall give account to God.’ In like manner, let all reverence the deacons as an appointment of Jesus Christ, and the bishop as Jesus Christ, who is the Son of the Father, and the presbyters as the Sanhedrin of God, and assembly of the apostles. Apart from these, there is no Church. See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. He who honors the bishop has been honored by God; he who does anything without the knowledge of the bishop, does [in reality] serve the devil. Give ye heed to the bishop, that God also may give heed to you. Be ye subject to the bishop, to the presbyters, and to the deacons.” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans, 8:1, [A.D. 107],)
Irenaeus
The Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said (Against Heresies 1:10 [A.D. 189**]).
Augustine
“We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church, which is Catholic and which is called Catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies. When heretics or the adherents of schisms talk about her, not among themselves but with strangers, willy-nilly they call her nothing else but Catholic. They will not be understood unless they distinguish her by this name, which the whole world employs in her regard.” (The True Religion 7:12, [A.D. 390]).
“[T]he very name of Catholic . . . belongs to this Church alone . . . so much so that, although all heretics want to be called ‘catholic,’ when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house” (Against the Letter of Mani Called `The Foundation’ 4:5 397 A.D.]).
“If you should find someone who does not yet believe in the gospel what would you [Mani] answer him when he says, “I do not believe”? Indeed, I would not believe the gospel myself if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.” (Against the Letter of Mani Called `The Foundation’ 4:5 397 A.D.]).
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I have lots more quotes like these if you need them.
Bible translator Tyndale says before being burnt at the stake:
“Far from having given us the Scriptures, IT IS YOU [Catholics] WHO HAVE HIDDEN them from us; it is YOU who BURN those who teach them, and if you could, YOU WOULD BURN [all] the Scriptures themselves.”–D’Aubigne, History of the Reformation of the Sixteenth Century, b. 18, ch. 4.
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ffg
Guest
This is where a little history comes to play. ( and the sad reality of our current world)
There was a time when the word of a man was his reputation.
Before pixels, before the printing press, before wide spread literacy.
A trustworthy time.
For example, I trust a 1500 year old book from a man much more quickly than say a news website today.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
The passage proves my point if you read it with understanding.
Brown and Co. wrote:
"the “sins not unto death” in this context also include mortal sins
So, for Brown, mortal sins are included with other sins in the passage from John. Consequently, they do exist.
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yogosans14
Guest
In Romans it says,
"because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight . . . " (Rom. 3:20)
“for we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law,” (Rom. 3:28)
“For what does the Scripture say? ‘And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness’” (Rom. 4:3)
"Therefore, having been justified by faith . . . " (Rom. 5:1)
“But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness” (Rom. 4:5).
In James it says,
“You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone,” (James 2:24)
" . . . so also faith without works is dead," (James 2:26).
Which is it? Are we justified by faith or by works?
Does the Bible Contradict - Itself?
It is a fundamental Christian belief that we are justified by faith. Justification means that God declares a sinner to be righteous. He does this by crediting, by reckoning the righteousness of Jesus to the sinner. This is done by faith. That is, when the sinner puts his faith in the sacrifice of Jesus and trusts in Him and not himself for righteousness, then God justifies him. “And Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” (Rom. 4:3). But, if the Bible teaches that we are justified by faith, does it also teach we are justified by works as James “seems” to say? Do we have a contradiction? The answer is no.
Context is Everything
It is erroneous to take a verse, read it without its context, and then attempt to develop a doctrine from that verse alone. Therefore, let’s take a look at the context of James 2:24 which says that a man is justified by works. James chapter 2 has 26 verses: Verses 1-7 instruct us not to show favoritism. Verses 8- 13 are comments on the Law. Verses 14-26 are about the relationship between faith and works.
James two
Notice that James begins this section by using the example of someone who says he has faith, verses 14. He then immediately gives an example of what true and false faiths are. He begins with the negative and demonstrates what an empty faith is (verses 15-17). Then he gives an example of the type of faith that isn’t much different from the faith of demons (verse 19). Finally, he gives examples of living faith by showing Abraham and Rahab as the type of people who demonstrated their faith by their deeds.
James is examining two kinds of faith: one that leads to godly works and one that does not. One is true, and the other is false. One is dead, the other alive; hence, “Faith without works is dead,” (James 2:20).
This is why in the middle of his section on faith and works, he says in verse 19, “You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.” James says this because the demons believe in God, that is, they have faith, but the faith they have is useless. It does not result in appropriate works. Their faith is only a mental acknowledgment of God’s existence.
Ascentia and Fiducia
Two words are worth introducing here: ascentia and fiducia. Ascentia is the mental assent, the mental acknowledgment of something’s existence. The demons acknowledge and believe that God exists. Fiducia is more than mental acknowledgment. It involves a trust in something, a giving over to it, a complete believing and acceptance of something. This is the kind of faith that a Christian has in Christ. A Christian, therefore, has fiducia; that is, he has real faith and trust in Christ, not simply an acknowledgment that He lived on earth at one time. Another way to put this is that there are many people in the world who believed that Jesus lived: ascentia. But they do not believe that He is their savior, the one to whom they should look and trust for the forgiveness of their sins.
Ascentia does not lead to works. Fiducia does. Ascentia is not of the heart. Fiducia is.
What is James Saying?
James is simply saying that if you ‘say’ you are a Christian, then there had better be some appropriate works manifested or your faith is false. This sentiment is echoed in 1 John 2:4 which says, “If you say you have come to know Him, yet you do not keep His commandments, then the truth is not in you and you are a liar.”
Apparently, there were people who were saying they were Christians, but were not manifesting any of the fruit of Christianity. Can this faith justify? Can the dead ‘faith’ that someone has which produces no change in a person and no good works before men and God be a faith that justifies? Absolutely not. It is not merely enough to say you believe in Jesus. You must actually believe and trust in Him. If you actually do, then you will demonstrate that faith by a changed and godly life. If not, then your profession is of no more value than the same profession of demons: “We believe Jesus lived.”
Notice that James actually quotes the same verse that Paul uses to support the teaching of justification by faith in Rom. 4:3. James 2:23 says, “and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, ‘and Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.’” If James was trying to teach a contradictory doctrine of faith and works than the other New Testament writers, then he would not have used Abraham as an example.
Therefore, we are justified by faith. That is, we are made righteous in the eyes of God by faith as is amply demonstrated by Romans. However, that faith, if it is true, will result in deeds appropriate to salvation. After all, didn’t God say in Eph. 2:8-10, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Pray.I understand that and I think you can trust them but I suppose my Lutheran upbringing is clouding my mind
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
You do realize that men wrote the Bible as well. And not only that - a group of men also received the books to be included. And not only that - groups of men have been translating the Bible for thousands of years.
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ffg
Guest
Why not have faith then in everything Jesus said? (including that which was said ‘to do’)
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yogosans14
Guest
There is nothing we can do in any way to merit the forgiveness of God. All that we need has been accomplished in the person of Christ who was made under the law (Galatians 4:4) and fulfilled the law perfectly having never sinned (1 Pet. 2:22). Because of the work of Christ, we receive his righteousness (Phil. 3:9) by faith (Rom. 5:1). What the Roman Catholic Church does is add a huge burden of works by which a Roman Catholic attempts to attain, maintain, and regain salvation. It is a hopeless process because it cannot save.
“For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law,” (Rom. 3:28).
“But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,” (Rom. 4:5).
“I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly," (Gal. 2:21).
“You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?” (Gal. 3:1-3).
The addition of works to salvation invalidates salvation. Essentially, is saying that the work of God in flesh is not sufficient. This is why we have such verses that condemn salvation based on faith and works…
“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness,’" (Matt. 7:22-23).
“Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee, and the other a tax-gatherer. 11 “The Pharisee stood and was praying thus to himself, ‘God, I thank Thee that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax-gatherer. 12 ‘I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’ 13 “But the tax-gatherer, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14 “I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself shall be humbled, but he who humbles himself shall be exalted," (Luke 18:10-14).
In essence, the Roman Catholic is supposed to perform works under the Roman Catholic system of law…it cannot save.
“Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law,” (Gal. 5:2-3).
“For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them,” (Gal. 3:10).
“For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all,” (James 2:10).
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bill99
Guest
preach on
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
I know he said a lot more
I have been gathering all these verses for years now. Creating Google docs and saving them online. They come in handy when in a rush
I love Scriptures by the way
It’s really amazing when we can see the entirety of Scriptures as a whole through the eyes of the Christ through His Church!
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bill99
Guest
I remember most of them I usually stay in the new testament but have started to move to the old testament
I have been gathering all these verses for years now. Creating Google docs and saving them online. They come in handy when in a rush
I love Scriptures by the way
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eddie_too
Guest
trust Jesus!!!
never forget that the bible does NOT contain all that Jesus did and taught.
Jesus spent three years teaching and training the twelve apostles.
that is why neither sacred scripture or sacred tradition alone (either one without the other) contain the entire deposit of faith.
it also important to realize that Jesus knew the hearts of sinful men better than they know their own hearts.
Jesus knew how best to make His grace available to human beings.
it seems to me that one of the more absurd propositions is the idea that Jesus did not create a system that would allow His teachings to remain available, in all their truths, to His flock.
there can only be one true Church. that Church must have existed since Jesus started it and guaranteed its success.
for non-catholics, a sound analysis of the christian faith should begin with the origins of those groups claiming to preach the authentic gospel of Jesus Christ in its totality.
from where did the profession of faith to which you ascribe get its origin?
never forget that the bible does NOT contain all that Jesus did and taught.
Jesus spent three years teaching and training the twelve apostles.
that is why neither sacred scripture or sacred tradition alone (either one without the other) contain the entire deposit of faith.
it also important to realize that Jesus knew the hearts of sinful men better than they know their own hearts.
Jesus knew how best to make His grace available to human beings.
it seems to me that one of the more absurd propositions is the idea that Jesus did not create a system that would allow His teachings to remain available, in all their truths, to His flock.
there can only be one true Church. that Church must have existed since Jesus started it and guaranteed its success.
for non-catholics, a sound analysis of the christian faith should begin with the origins of those groups claiming to preach the authentic gospel of Jesus Christ in its totality.
from where did the profession of faith to which you ascribe get its origin?
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Tyndale was a fiery sort, wasn’t he?
Do you want to comment at all on the quotes from the Early Church Fathers which prove that the Church was named the “Catholic Church” almost from the beginning?
Or shall we move on to another of your laundry list?
Yeah, let’s do that…
Mary as Queen of Heaven Proved From Scripture
Luke 1:31–33
And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. He will be great, and will be called Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of his kingdom there will be no end.
Jesus inherits David’s throne, and Mary becomes Queen Mother. Support for the principle of the Queen Mother in the House of David is found clearly in the following passages:
1 Kings 2:19
When Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, the king stood up to meet her, bowed down to her and sat down on his throne. He had a throne brought for the king’s mother, and she sat down at his right hand.
Since Solomon had MANY wives, none of them would be queen. In fact, it was his mother that sat on the throne. This idea is also evident in the book of Jeremiah:
Jeremiah 13:18
18 Say to the king and to the queen mother, “Come down from your thrones, for your glorious crowns will fall from your heads.”
From these two passages, we can see that the mother of the king held the title of Queen in the Davidic kingdom. We also know that Mary is the Queen of Heaven from the following:
Revelation 12:1-2
1A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.
Since the writer goes on to say that the woman gave birth to a son who would rule the nations, we can conclude that the woman wearing the crown in heaven is the Mother of Jesus, Mary.
Additionally, Jesus establishes Peter as His royal steward for He gives to Peter “the keys of the kingdom of heaven”. This alludes to the prophecy of Isaiah that reads,
Isaiah 22:20-22
"In that day I will summon my servant, Eliakim son of Hilkiah. I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.”
In ancient times, the king would choose a Royal Steward or prime minister who literally wore a large key as a symbol of his office and who spoke with the authority of the king. Jesus gives Peter the authority to speak in His name and extends his authority beyond the earthly realm when he gives Peter the “keys to the kingdom of heaven.”
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
yogosans,
There is no way around this:
Faith without Works is Dead.
Does a dead faith save?
There is no way around this:
Faith without Works is Dead.
Does a dead faith save?
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
Amen! Solid Catholic theology. But not by faith alone.
Not By Faith Alone
Isn’t it curious that the Apostle Paul used the word “faith” and related terms more than 200 times in the New Testament, yet he never once used the phrase “faith alone”?
This seems strange considering how concerned Paul was with passing on the faith accurately and the means to justification would be among the most important truths he would preach. In fact, throughout all of his works, he goes to great lengths to choose his words with precision, so it seems odd that “faith alone” does not appear once in all of his writings.
This is even more surprising given the fact that Paul also used the words “alone” and “only” more than any other New Testament author. Clearly, Paul was well-accustomed to using these powerful qualifiers.
Could it be that the Holy Spirit prevented Paul from ever writing “faith alone” to describe the process of justification? And that same check prevented any of the gospel writers from ascribing “faith alone” to Jesus, either.
In fact, the only time that the Holy Spirit allowed any author to use that infamous phrase is when He inspired James to write, “You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.” (James 2:24)
Therefore, for those who propose that Paul taught justification by faith alone, a very haunting question remains: Why didn’t Paul use the specific phrase “faith alone” anywhere in his New Testament writings?
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yogosans14
Guest
Thanks but then again I’m on a Catholic forum where im the 1% minority who believes in the heretical “sola scriptura”preach on
So in reality I’m debating with a wall at this point. I do respect the RCC and Catholics but claiming I’m on my way to eternal torment because of disagreeing with doctrines that I cannot find in the Bible (if we read it in its context) then I’m only fooling myself. I have faith I will meet face to face with the Lord in Heaven. What a great day that will be
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Randy_Carson
Guest
James on Salvation by “Faith Alone”
By Dr. Art Sippo
What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? (James 2:14)
The underlined is a rhetorical question in Greek. The implied answer is “No!” So here we are clearly told that faith ALONE cannot save. No mention is made that works are an alleged “demonstration” of anything. Without works faith is not profitable towards salvation.
“If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, ‘Go in peace, be warmed and filled,’ without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.” (James 2:15-17)
Once again, we are told that faith ALONE does not save and is not profitable. Note well, it does not say that one must have works to demonstrate faith. It says that faith without works is DEAD. So the same faith that saves (i.e., a trusting belief in God’s forgiveness for our sins and for His redemption of us in Christ) is unable to do so if we do not act upon it.
“But some one will say, ‘You have faith and I have works.’ Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.” (James 2:18)
This verse has been horribly misused by Protestants to pretend that works merely demonstrate faith. But that is in error. We have already seen that true faith can exist without works.
What St. James is trying to say here is that anybody can say they believe, but how can you tell? Meanwhile, the man who acts like he believes can give evidence for it. This was an off-hand comment that was never intended by St. James to limit the importance of good works. As we read on we will see this.
Now Protestants are always acting like there is some importance to “demonstrating” their faith before men, but there is not. If faith alone saved, we would not need to demonstrate it to anyone but God who knows the inner heart and who does not need our external works to tell Him that we have faith.
“You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe – and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is dead?” (James 2:19-20)
Once again, there is nothing about demonstration of anything. Faith ALONE without works is DEAD and cannot save.
“Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, ‘Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness’; and he was called the friend of God.” (James 2:21-23)
Now we get to the heart of the matter. Works are not EXTERNAL to faith. Faith is active in our works and COMPLETED by our works. Good works are not merely the demonstration of faith. Works are faith itself at work. And a true saving faith is INCOMPLETE if those works are not present. That is, good works are an INTEGRAL part of a saving faith.
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. (James 2:24)
This verse is the ultimate judgment of Scripture on the whole so-called “reformation”. No one claiming to be biblical can hold to the Protestant error.
By Dr. Art Sippo
What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? (James 2:14)
The underlined is a rhetorical question in Greek. The implied answer is “No!” So here we are clearly told that faith ALONE cannot save. No mention is made that works are an alleged “demonstration” of anything. Without works faith is not profitable towards salvation.
“If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, ‘Go in peace, be warmed and filled,’ without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.” (James 2:15-17)
Once again, we are told that faith ALONE does not save and is not profitable. Note well, it does not say that one must have works to demonstrate faith. It says that faith without works is DEAD. So the same faith that saves (i.e., a trusting belief in God’s forgiveness for our sins and for His redemption of us in Christ) is unable to do so if we do not act upon it.
“But some one will say, ‘You have faith and I have works.’ Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.” (James 2:18)
This verse has been horribly misused by Protestants to pretend that works merely demonstrate faith. But that is in error. We have already seen that true faith can exist without works.
What St. James is trying to say here is that anybody can say they believe, but how can you tell? Meanwhile, the man who acts like he believes can give evidence for it. This was an off-hand comment that was never intended by St. James to limit the importance of good works. As we read on we will see this.
Now Protestants are always acting like there is some importance to “demonstrating” their faith before men, but there is not. If faith alone saved, we would not need to demonstrate it to anyone but God who knows the inner heart and who does not need our external works to tell Him that we have faith.
“You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe – and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is dead?” (James 2:19-20)
Once again, there is nothing about demonstration of anything. Faith ALONE without works is DEAD and cannot save.
“Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, ‘Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness’; and he was called the friend of God.” (James 2:21-23)
Now we get to the heart of the matter. Works are not EXTERNAL to faith. Faith is active in our works and COMPLETED by our works. Good works are not merely the demonstration of faith. Works are faith itself at work. And a true saving faith is INCOMPLETE if those works are not present. That is, good works are an INTEGRAL part of a saving faith.
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. (James 2:24)
This verse is the ultimate judgment of Scripture on the whole so-called “reformation”. No one claiming to be biblical can hold to the Protestant error.
Y
yogosans14
Guest
A good faith is a result of GOOD WORKS. Lets look at the Jehovahs Witnesses for example, they go out and preach door to door and put in a lot of time because they believe in a works based salvation, infact they believe if you arent doing ENOUGH works then you will be destroyed at Armageddon. They are in reality, only kidding themselves. Relationship with God is what matters, not works
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