To become Orthodox or Catholic?

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I honestly feel that my biggest stumbling block as of now is the fact that the EO and RC churches both claim to be The One True Church, but are not united. If they would be in communion, that would help my decision a lot.

I definitely believe in the Real Presence, Baptismal Regeneration, and I’m slowly understanding the idea of the departed saints as intercessors more and more.

Another question I have, while I’m thinking about it, is the idea of patron saints, such as St. Christopher being the patron of those who travel, St. Jude being the patron of lost/desperate causes, etc. What is the point in this? To me this seems to make the saints in question God’s little secretaries or something. Any thoughts?
 
So now I’m in a real dilemma. I’m know I will eventually end up in one church or the other, but I’m petrified of making the wrong choice! Any advice?
Hi

I am an Ahmadi a peaceful Muslim

I think you need not be confused. This is a very minor issue why to make it unproportionally big for you. Which ever denominations is truthful ( from the Catholics and Eastern Orthodox) in the basic pillars of the faith should be joined by you. Minor things never matter much, these things might differ from an individual to the other individual, making actually no wortwhile difference.

May GodAllahYHWH rid you of the confusion.

Thanks
 
…as he departed saints as intercessors more and more.

Another question I have, while I’m thinking about it, is the idea of patron saints, such as St. Christopher being the patron of those who travel, St. Jude being the patron of lost/desperate causes, etc. What is the point in this? To me this seems to make the saints in question God’s little secretaries or something. Any thoughts?
To be perfectly frank, your confusion is understandable.

Early in the church, saints were commemorated, basically as hero figures. Martyrs would be remembered on the anniversary of their death, sort of like a ‘birthday’ into eternal life. A liturgy would be said at their grave, or at the site where they were killed.

Such persons, thought to be assuredly saved or deified (holy) were commonly believed to be closer to God in some undefined way. It was hoped that their prayers would be more effective in convincing God to show mercy. So they would ask the departed for prayers…our God is the God of the living.

It was something like “tell Dad I said hello”…that sort of thing.

It is directly in line with the concept of praying for the departed. With the idea that someone is surely in heaven with God’s Glory they would be less in need of prayers, but happily prepared to pray for us.

Naturally, the people who appealed to Saints were, in the beginning, those who knew the person, or knew of him (her), the community from which that person arose. That would typically be the town setting or region of the martyr, and the group among whom he worked (seamen, tailors, merchants). The saint could be a friend figure, and a role model.

Today it is common to read the lives of the saints and find figures we admire (less common than when I was young but it still happens), sometimes naming our children after them. It is also common to name children for a saint on the calendar the day they were born. If/when miracles occurred, these were often attributed to the saint appealed to, as if they had a parochial interest and were listening to us, eager to help! These saints could become favorites of ours, and people sometimes adopted saints as a family, “my favorite saint is…, just like Papa!”

Eastern Christians especially have a “names day”, the day on the calendar where the saint is commemorated whom they are named after, many priests will wish the parishioners a “happy names day” to those whom they know are coming up on the calendar.

But quite frankly many Catholics and Orthodox do not pay a lot of attention to such things. It ebbs and flows through the culture over time. I myself pray directly to God 99.9% of the time. I do light candles before icons of saints in church (as most of us do) and ask for their prayers on my behalf, but percentage-wise that is minimal. My icon corner at home is small, I only have icons of Jesus, saint Michael and the Holy Trinity. I pray to Jesus and the Holy Trinity as to God, I ask Saint Michael for prayers when I address him as well.

This is not something you must cultivate, you must only understand the habit of others to pray this way. If this is new and uncomfortable for you, just keep doing what you have been doing. There is no mandate, it either grows on you or it does not.

Michael, that sinner
 
Thanks for your response Michael.

It’s not that I neccesarily have a problem with praying to saints and angels (I occasionally pray to my guardian angel, Saint Michale, and St. Jude) but the idea of having a patron saint of…whatever, strikes me as a bit like the various pagan deities (moon god, sun god, god of war, etc.)
 
Thanks for your response Michael.

It’s not that I neccesarily have a problem with praying to saints and angels (I occasionally pray to my guardian angel, Saint Michale, and St. Jude) but the idea of having a patron saint of…whatever, strikes me as a bit like the various pagan deities (moon god, sun god, god of war, etc.)
Hi

I think you are right, it seem to be the same phenomenon.

Thanks
 
for anyone interested in learning about the Orthodox branch of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic church. Might I suggest you visit Come Recieve The Light. It is a radio program that come from my parsih church Saint Demetrios; it is on the www and you can listen from anywhere in the world, as long as you have a computer. You may also visit the Greek Orthodox Church of America…they too have a website. There you will find many tools, quite similar to this great website. They discuss issues from the Orthodox perspective.

If you are ever in Fort Lauderdale, Florida…then I invite you to come visit my church…Saint Demetrios. We have a lovely Greek Festival in Feb when it is cold in the north…but usually warm here in Florida. My church does our worship in both Greek and English. I am usually with our Sunday School children…but you are most welcome to come join us for a Sunday service, or visit your local GOARCH church. You will NEVER be turned away from joining the service, and you may recieve the “andithero” and a blessing from our priests at the end of the service. Where cumfy shoes, as we dont sit down very much 🙂

Also most of our churches have the DL by John Crys…if you follow along in the book…and go to enough services…it becomes like jumping in and out of a big jump rope. You just gotta jump in and hope you dont trip up the rope. But if you do trip, its ok…most of us do…and someone will be there to help you.

OPA!
Barbie

I forgot…we have two new links…The Ark, which is our radio-talk-discussion site and a new contemp. christian music site too. The GOARCH church is beginning to rock…(not in our worship services which will never change) but many of us are having First Friday Family Nights…where we get “plugged-in” and share a great meal…both physically and spiritually…OPA!😃
 
Ok, so here it goes…

…I was introduced to the Eastern Orthodox Church approximately a year or so ago. Through this I began reading as much about the early church as I could. Based on my research and reading, I am now a quickly lapsing protestant. I started attending Orthodox Divine Liturgy regularly about six months ago, and have also started catechism (although I am not officially a catachumen).

About a month ago I started reading a lot of Catholic apologetics, and through that stumbled upon this forum. Two weeks ago I attended the second Catholic mass I had ever been to in my life, and something drew me back the following week (I’m probably the only person I know who ever goes to Catholic Mass and EO Divine Liturgy on the same Sunday!)

Now my dilemma, I don’t know what to think anymore! It seems to me that while the EO and RC both have a lot in common, there are some key distinctives. Both RC’s and EO’s I talk to claim that they believe that each other’s sacraments are valid, yet they would never partake of each other’s Eucharist! What am I to make of this? If both churches sacraments are valid, then what is the difference?

So now I’m in a real dilemma. I’m know I will eventually end up in one church or the other, but I’m petrified of making the wrong choice! Any advice?
God bless you and welcome. This is an opportunity and a call to search out the truth by diligent examination and in all necessary detail.

Certainly the issue of papal authority is paramount. There were in fact instances in early church history when the popes used their authority in the east. The most important is that of the Formula of Pope Hormisdas, which the entirety of the Byzantine episcopate had to sign. It’s described in the link below, but you’ll need additional background information, and I’ll be recommending some excellent books that have it…

hometown.aol.com/dtbrown/page2.html
 
Thanks for your response Michael.

It’s not that I neccesarily have a problem with praying to saints and angels (I occasionally pray to my guardian angel, Saint Michale, and St. Jude) but the idea of having a patron saint of…whatever, strikes me as a bit like the various pagan deities (moon god, sun god, god of war, etc.)
I am not disagreeing with you here. It has a lot to do with human nature and our penchant for familiar forms.

Specifically, the Mediterranean world had (and still has, to a great extent) a cultural history of strong client-patron relationships. The patron can be like a mentor in a modern frame of reference, or a guardian. This very fundamental model is still reflected in modern business, in some types of sales organizations, in extended families, and crime syndicates! No small number of people have risen through society this way, in the Roman Empire one mechanism was to adopt a certain favored child, to give the needed financial boost and protection.

Feudalism was built upon patron-client relationships. The next time you see a hospital wing named after some big donor it will be an example of the client-patron relationship at work: the hospital needs money, and asks a patron who responds. The client (the hospital) seals the relationship by honoring the patron by naming the building after him.

A spiritual father fulfills that role for some people, and for many that is the pastor. It is how society was structured in the region across many nations. People tended to have their vision of the spiritual world mirror their experience in the world of life around them, and so you will find that from pagan times reflected in personal/familiy/community deities. This is not much different.

People have patron saints because they want patron saints. I’d say nine out of ten Catholics today know very little about it, and often don’t know whom their patron saint would be. I don’t find evidence for it in early Apostolic Christianity.

Like I said, you may continue as you have. Prayers directly to God are fine. If you don’t want or expect the help of intercessory prayers from saints, this will not bar you from God.

I personally ask for intercessory prayer from people I know all of the time, I won’t hesitate to pray for others or ask for prayers, I spontaneously pray when I see an ambulance, or a house on fire. But I don’t remember my parents (memory eternal!) having strong devotions to particular saints and I did not cultivate one either. I have “favorite” saints, which is not the same thing.

I have no problem with it, I just have not internalized the practice very much. It’s OK, God listens.
 
From the rising to the setting of the sun the Lord is praised, so why go to present day Rome if you are Western?
Because to my fallible eyes it seems quite clear that the Lord is praised among those of the Roman Communion (and even among us Protestants).

The point is that if a Protestant is convinced that Protestantism is wrong, the natural move is to Rome. That’s the default option and it should be, unless the Protestant becomes convinced that Rome is wrong over against the Orthodox.

Edwin
 
Well, it was. On the other hand, if you talk to Eastern European evangelicals, or read about the (Mennonite-influenced) Stundist movement in Russia, you’ll see that the Orthodox Church can be quite oppressive as well.

I understand where you are coming from. I nearly became Catholic in grad school, and my family freaked out. That’s partly how I wound up Anglican!

Edwin
The story of my religious development:

1-9, The Church of the Nazarene
10-14, an independent, fundamental community
15-17, The Anglican Catholic Church (valid orders, BTW)
18 onward. Roman Catholic Church

And my fundie family is still freakin’ out and calling me a servant of “Antichrist” (the Pope.)
 
Because to my fallible eyes it seems quite clear that the Lord is praised among those of the Roman Communion (and even among us Protestants).

The point is that if a Protestant is convinced that Protestantism is wrong, the natural move is to Rome. That’s the default option and it should be, unless the Protestant becomes convinced that Rome is wrong over against the Orthodox.

Edwin
I agree, but it seems many Catholics like to see the Orthodoxy as easier for Protestants because they can still reject the Pope. There are more important issues, IMHO…

Also, most Protestants I know would accept Rome over Orthodoxy because of the shared Latin traditions like unleavened bread and the Filioque…
 
Now my dilemma, I don’t know what to think anymore! It seems to me that while the EO and RC both have a lot in common, there are some key distinctives. Both RC’s and EO’s I talk to claim that they believe that each other’s sacraments are valid, yet they would never partake of each other’s Eucharist! What am I to make of this? If both churches sacraments are valid, then what is the difference?

So now I’m in a real dilemma. I’m know I will eventually end up in one church or the other, but I’m petrified of making the wrong choice! Any advice?
Dear brother in Christ,

Division is a characteristic of human existence. For me, recognition of this fact facilitated a greater understanding of earlier schisms.

The Church has always had groups splinter off, who in turn maintain themselves to actually be the true Church.

Your choice in 2007 concerns the Eastern Orthodox Church. For others (in centuries gone by) the decision would have concerned Gnostics, Arians, or the Monophysites.

Each of these groups had (have) heavyweight claims to ‘Truth’. If they didn’t (like the Anglicans who ‘ordain’ women), it would be easy to discern.

The principle area of contention is the papacy. Eastern Orthodox arguments against the Catholic Church are sophisticated, and reasonable, and posit an ecclesiology without the pope. As are those put forward by the Oriental Orthodox, the Anglicans, the Old Believers, and the Assyrian Church of the East.

In essence, however, there is no single justification by a non Catholic Church that in turn points only to itself as a remedy for the ill of the papacy.

In fact, the only common denominator between them all, is that if you look back through history, each was once in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

Marlo (above) has already noted the question I posed to another seeker a few months back, but the gravity it represents bears it worth repeating - If the Bishop of Rome is right, you know where to go. If he is wrong, do you know where to go?

In Jesus Christ,

p.s The Catholic Church does consider the Eastern Orthodox Church to have valid sacraments, but while this claim is not officially reciprocated, there are a growing number of Orthodox more willing to accept the idea.
 
My other stumbling block is that I was raised Mennonite, and basically was taught from little on up that the Roman Catholic Church is the “Whore of Babylon” etc.

This should be further proof that the Catholic Church is the one Christ gave us. He did promise that the world would hate and persecute His Church. Being called the whore of babylon by myriads of non-Catholics seems like quite the persecution to me.

My family knows I attend an Orthodox church, but as of now this means little to them, whereas if I said Roman Catholic, I can’t imagine what the reaction would be!!

Further persecution based on misunderstanding of the Church’s true teachings. Almost all Doctrine of the Catholic and the Orthodox Churches are the same, so they should have the same problems with you attending either Church.

This is my other dillemma. I haven’t come fully clean with my family about this out of fear of their reaction. I’m in college and still partially dependent on my parents, and if the carpet were fully pulled out from under me I’m not quite sure how I could handle it.

This may be the part where you have to take things a bit slowly and put complete confidence in God. He will take care of you even though these times can be very trying while dealing with family members.

The other thing that really bothers me is the division between the RC and EO church. Although I hear that both of their sacraments are valid, they can’t both possibly be the one true church they claim to be, can they? If so, then isn’t kind of like the Protestant idea of the universal church?

The reason the sacraments are valid in both Churches is because these are the only Churches that truly have an unbroken line of Apostolic succession. All other non-Catholic/non-Orthodox groups do not have this unbroken line back to the Apostles, therefor, no validly ordained priests, therefor, no valid sacraments. Of course, Baptism and Holy Matrimony are the exceptions to this because they are the two sacraments that don’t require a valid priest to administer them.

Also, the Catholic Church does allow Catholics to partake of the sacraments at an Orthodox Church if there is no Catholic Church available, AND if the Orthodox Church (priest) allows the Catholic to partake of the sacrament. The second part is very unlikely to happen though.
 
Ok, so here it goes…

…I was introduced to the Eastern Orthodox Church approximately a year or so ago. Through this I began reading as much about the early church as I could. Based on my research and reading, I am now a quickly lapsing protestant. I started attending Orthodox Divine Liturgy regularly about six months ago, and have also started catechism (although I am not officially a catachumen).

About a month ago I started reading a lot of Catholic apologetics, and through that stumbled upon this forum. Two weeks ago I attended the second Catholic mass I had ever been to in my life, and something drew me back the following week (I’m probably the only person I know who ever goes to Catholic Mass and EO Divine Liturgy on the same Sunday!)

Now my dilemma, I don’t know what to think anymore! It seems to me that while the EO and RC both have a lot in common, there are some key distinctives. Both RC’s and EO’s I talk to claim that they believe that each other’s sacraments are valid, yet they would never partake of each other’s Eucharist! What am I to make of this? If both churches sacraments are valid, then what is the difference?

So now I’m in a real dilemma. I’m know I will eventually end up in one church or the other, but I’m petrified of making the wrong choice! Any advice?
Don’t be afraid to make the wrong choice - fear comes from Satan, not from God. Although I truly understand how you feel because I was a Protestant once too. I actually had never heard of the Orthodox Church when I became Catholic at age 20; however, within just a couple of years I found out about Orthodoxy through reading a Catholic Encyclepedia (something I did for fun). Anyway, around that time, my daughter was about 2 and every time I’d go to receive Eucharist, she’d scream, “I WANT MY JESUS!” But in the Catholic Church, children are forbidden from approaching Jesus - which reminds me alot of Matt. 19:14. Anyway, I ended up speaking with an Orthodox priest and yet just becoming Catholic just a couple years earlier I was fearful of making the wrong decision. After about 7 years of prayer and study my daughter and I became Orthodox Christians. We’ve never regreted it. Now any other children I have or my daughter has will be able to “Come to Jesus” as soon as they are baptized in order to receive the King of All in Holy Eucharist.

The two Churches are not in communion with each other today due to Doctrinal differences such as:
  1. What is the relationship between the Holy Trinity? Orthodox maintain what Sacred Scripture says: The Son is begotten of the Father and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. Catholics came up with a different belief and added the clause “Filioque” to the original Creed which the Orthodox Church still maintains unaltered.
  2. Mary…and no one else was born with the guilt of Original Sin, but every human being, since Adam and Eve, Mary and Christ included were born into a world with the consequences of Original Sin - sickness and death. Both Mary and Jesus are the two human being who never sinned even once during their lifetime. Mary was not created any more special than you and I were; however, she is so much special and greater then us because she chose not to sin.
  3. What is the Role of each of the Patriarchates? Is one Patriarch elevated to be Supreme and Infallible above all the other Patriarches and Bishops who hold valid Apostolic Succession? The answer according to the Orthodox, based on history, is NOPE.
    These are just a few of the Doctrinial differences, but there are other differences too.When is Pascha (Easter) to be celebrated…Orthodox maintain the original dating methods, Catholics don’t. The miracle of Holy Fire confirms that the Orthodox have maintained the correct date for the last 20 centuries: holyfire.org/eng/ youtube.com/watch?v=h7rR2N0Jano&NR=1
 
20 million Orthodox Christians were killed in Russia alone during the 20th century…that is persecution!

Being called a name, the Whore of Babalyon simply doesn’t compare with the amount of actual persecution the Orthodox Church has endured.

Didn’t your mom ever teach you, “Sticks and Stones may brake my bones, but words will never hurt me”.
 
Hi

I think let us know as to what is the thinking of the OP now after so many months. Maybe he/she has already make up his/her mind. Let him decide peacefully.

Thanks
 
As a Catholic I found my self in that same position too, pondering which is the true Church. I have the highest regard for the Orthodox and as a Catholic their belief are more or less in fidelity with my, I have remained a Catholic due to (Matt, 16:18-20) knowing very well how’s rock my Church built on.
 
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