To bow or to kneel

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CyrilSebastian

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In the Nicene Creed of the Ordinary Form of the Mass, after the sentence of For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven
it is instructed that All bow their heads during the next three lines
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary
and became man.
Code: 
 In the Tridentine Mass I attended on Sunday, the book declared that All kneel during these three lines.        
   
  Why in the Nicene Creed of the Ordinary Form is the instruction "to bow"
and in the Nicene Creed of the Tridentine Mass is the instruction "to kneel’?
 
Presumably because there’s no tabernacle on the altar at an OF Mass.
 
johnmann said:
Presumably because there’s no tabernacle on the altar at an OF Mass.
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I’ve never seen a tabernacle on a mensa.

I do know of churches in which the OF is exclusively performed and the tabernacle, with a red lamp before it, is in the sanctuary proper, indicating that the Blessed Sacrament is within.

Please help me to understand your comment by citing your source. Thanks in advance.
 
johnmann said:
Presumably because there’s no tabernacle on the altar at an OF Mass.
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This is NOT an accurate statement. Some Churches had their tabernacles on a side altar instead of the high altar even before Vatican II.

I think they simply changed it for the following logistical reasons:
  1. so elderly priests (or ones with bad knees) with dispensations from kneeling would be able to do the same thing as the congregation.
  2. same with laity.
  3. one can argue that bowing is logistically easier to do in the pews vs the kneel. Esp with the sound of kneelers dropping during the Creed (which happened the last time I attended a the EF with a 1000+ Catholics at the Cathedral Bascillia.
Personally, I like the kneel, but I think it’s easier to focus on praying the Creed by bowing vs kneeling.

I hope this makes sense and helps
 
[edited]

As a general rule in the EF, Mass is performed using the high altar on which the Blessed Sacrament is reserved. You genuflect throughout Mass towards the Blessed Sacrament.

In the OF, it is recommended that the tabernacle be placed outside the sanctuary. In such a case, there is no genuflecting during Mass before the consecration. Even when the tabernacle is within the sanctuary, there is no genuflection between the priest’s reverencing of the altar at the start and end of Mass. No Blessed Sacrament, no genuflecting, as a general rule.
 
Where I attend the EF, there is kneeling when the choir sings “Et incarnatus est de Spiritu Sancto ex Maria Virgine” then an added profound bow at “ET HOMO FACTUS EST.” Then stand though the rest of the Creed, unless the priest sits during the choir singing.

There is also bowing at the “Jesum Christum,” and during the “simul adoràtur et conglorifcàtur,” though I notice very few doing this.

.
 
johnmann said:
In the OF, it is recommended that the tabernacle be placed outside the sanctuary. In such a case, there is no genuflecting during Mass before the consecration. Even when the tabernacle is within the sanctuary, there is no genuflection between the priest’s reverencing of the altar at the start and end of Mass. No Blessed Sacrament, no genuflecting, as a general rule.
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Most parishes I attend have the tabernacle directly behind the altar, or the side, but still behind the altar. These are parishes with OF.

The only parish I know of that doesn’t have the tabernacle near the altar also has a variety of abuses going on; whether that is a coincidence, I do not know. But these are legit abuses.
 
johnmann said:
In the OF, it is recommended that the tabernacle be placed outside the sanctuary. In such a case, there is no genuflecting during Mass before the consecration. Even when the tabernacle is within the sanctuary, there is no genuflection between the priest’s reverencing of the altar at the start and end of Mass. No Blessed Sacrament, no genuflecting, as a general rule.
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This just not true. The Church NEVER recommended moving the Tabernacle. They was done during the spirit of Vatican II (and even before Vatican II). Most bishops have required Churches to move the Tabernacle behind the altar.

Also, as I posted before, before Vatican II, there were large Churches and Cathedrals with more than one Altar. It was not common to have the Tabernacle behind a side altar, where daily and/or private masses were held.

Therefore, I seriously doubt the change from kneeling to bowing has anything to do with the tabernacle, because not all High Altars had Tabernacles behind them. It most likely has more to do with the banging of kneelers dropping during the creed.
 
ProVobis said:
Where I attend the EF, there is kneeling when the choir sings “Et incarnatus est de Spiritu Sancto ex Maria Virgine” then an added profound bow at “ET HOMO FACTUS EST.” Then stand though the rest of the Creed, unless the priest sits during the choir singing.

There is also bowing at the “Jesum Christum,” and during the “simul adoràtur et conglorifcàtur,” though I notice very few doing this.

.
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Note: In the OF, we are still supposed to bow our heads at the name of Jesus, the Holy Trinity, the Blessed Mother, and the Saint of the day (if a memorial).

These are still required, though many don’t do them.
 
But the Op, who usually knows the answer and posts these questions to edify the unwashed masses (or who will later weigh in with a pronouncement on who is “correct”) asked why there is this variation between forms.

Someone who isn’t familiar with Vii docs offered his own conjecture.
 
But the Op, who usually knows the answer and posts these questions to edify the unwashed masses (or who will later weigh in with a pronouncement on who is “correct”) asked why there is this variation between forms.

Someone who isn’t familiar with Vii docs offered his own conjecture.
 
Miserissima said:
But the Op, who usually knows the answer and posts these questions to edify the unwashed masses (or who will later weigh in with a pronouncement on who is “correct”) asked why there is this variation between forms.

Someone who isn’t familiar with Vii docs offered his own conjecture.
Click to expand...
Well yeah, there’s that.
 
detoutcoeur said:
From Fr. John Zuhlsdorf:
*
In the Novus Ordo at those words people are to bow, instead of kneel. People are to kneel only twice: on 25 March and 25 December. In the Extraordinary Form, people kneel every time the Creed is recited and it is used more often than in the Novus Ordo.*

wdtprs.com/blog/2011/09/quaeritur-bowing-during-the-creed/
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Point of order…the term Novus Ordo is defunct…it was “new” over 50 years ago, perhaps, but the OF holds equal ecclesiastic standing with the EF. Use of the term Novus Ordo can be viewed as offensive and divisive.
 
johnmann said:
As a general rule in the EF, Mass is performed using the high altar on which the Blessed Sacrament is reserved. You genuflect throughout Mass towards the Blessed Sacrament.
Click to expand...
I don’t know all the rubrics here but there are times you genuflect (or bow as a lot of priests can’t genuflect) to the tabernacle/Blessed Sacrament IF IT’S THERE. Generally the bow is toward the crucifix or to the missal if it’s the Virgin Mary, etc. This is at least what the priest does and explained on the instruction tapes and other medium.
 
phil19034 said:
This just not true. The Church NEVER recommended moving the Tabernacle. They was done during the spirit of Vatican II (and even before Vatican II). Most bishops have required Churches to move the Tabernacle behind the altar.

Also, as I posted before, before Vatican II, there were large Churches and Cathedrals with more than one Altar. It was not common to have the Tabernacle behind a side altar, where daily and/or private masses were held.

Therefore, I seriously doubt the change from kneeling to bowing has anything to do with the tabernacle, because not all High Altars had Tabernacles behind them. It most likely has more to do with the banging of kneelers dropping during the creed.
Click to expand...
I was wrong. It was recommended that the altar be moved and the tabernacle not be on the altar.

At any rate, any theory as to why the Credo posture was changed to a bow should also take into consideration the fact that the priest genuflecting at the start and end of Mass, after each elevation, and his Communion were not eliminated but genuflecting at all other times during Mass was eliminated for all and also the fact that there’s still kneeling during Mass.

Your theory about the kneelers banging is possible and might have been a factor but I still maintain that it’s the change in treatment of the tabernacle during Mass. To have kept the old posture in the Credo, you would have the odd situation where you kneel/genuflect for the Credo but only bow when passing the Blessed Sacrament.
 
phil19034 said:
These are still required, though many don’t do them.
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My guess is that most genuflections, signs of cross, even bows, were removed from the Mass, because as the priest now faces the people and recites the prayers audibly, they are no longer necessary. As far as kneeling goes, generally the trend was to more standing to the point kneeling isn’t done until the Eucharistic Prayers, or the Consecration, or not at all.
 
I used to go to a church where they did the ordinary form. They didn’t do ANYTHING during the part where they say, “He was incarnated by the Holy Spirit…” We just stood. Period. Also, we always did the great Amen while rising from the kneelers. Not kneeling, not standing, just kinda in between.

Now how’s THAT for originality? sigh😦
 
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