To bow or to kneel

[ccmcmg]

I used to go to a church where they did the ordinary form. They didn’t do ANYTHING during the part where they say, “He was incarnated by the Holy Spirit…” We just stood. Period. Also, we always did the great Amen while rising from the kneelers. Not kneeling, not standing, just kinda in between.

Now how’s THAT for originality? sigh

How long ago was that? Was it before the latest changes in the Mass a few years ago? Because the parish I attended as a child in the 70s and 80s, 90s and early 2000s, didn’t bow (nor did others), and we were sometimes rising (or kneeling) when we said the Amen.

 

[otjm]

Contrary to popular urban mythology and opinion, the rubrics for the OF were not simply a willy nilly exercise in change from the EF. If one were to obtain a Masters, perhaps in Liturgy, one might possibly access documents from the last 100+ years and be able to put together the reasoning behind the changes. More likely, the subject would be part of a Ph.D. in liturgy, as the issue is fairly esoteric.

The likelihood that it had to do with the placement of the tabernacle (which historically appears to have more alternatives in Europe than in the U.S.) or an issue with knees is approaching nil and none.

The questions are good questions; but liturgical change was in the realm of discussion decades before Vatican 2 and the subsequent changes post Vatican 2. I=t may be frustrating to those who want to know “why?”, but the answers were not put together in a book for future perusing.

The same can be said of many changes the Church has made over the centuries; there may be a bit of explanation (or there may not be), but it rarely ever sets out all the thinking, arguing, and decision making by those closest to the changes.

So far, we have had two opinions expressed as to why the change; neither of which owes any substantiation to historical research. Speculation is fine, except that it has a tendency to appear at a later date as factual when it is anything but.

The bottom line is, we don’t know why the changes were made; they may have had very substantial grounds for the changes; but lacking that information, the result to many may appear that it was simply whimsy - a charge too often fallen back upon when the real answer is not immediately at hand.

And sad to say, many of the people, if not most, who were involved in those changes are no longer in our midst and capable of giving accurate rendition of the "why?’.

All of which is another way of swaying “We don’t know, and most likely never will”.

 

[Joan_M]

Therefore, I seriously doubt the change from kneeling to bowing has anything to do with the tabernacle, because not all High Altars had Tabernacles behind them. It most likely has more to do with the banging of kneelers dropping during the creed.

I see comments like this frequently from posters who seem to live in the US. It has never made sense to me. First, why all the up and down with kneelers? I have never been to any church where the pews were so close together that it was impossible to stand with the kneelers down! Even where there are pews with kneelers that can be raised I’ve seldom seen them in an up position - and then, only when they were raised for cleaning the floor and one or two of them had not been lowered. Second, even if people would need to raise and lower the kneelers at Mass, why can’t they do this noiselessly? In the few cases that I have had to lower a kneeler in a church, it was perfectly possible for me, a woman, to lower the kneeler without banging it.

 

[pianistclare]

:clapping::yup:

I see comments like this frequently from posters who seem to live in the US. It has never made sense to me. First, why all the up and down with kneelers? I have never been to any church where the pews were so close together that it was impossible to stand with the kneelers down! Even where there are pews with kneelers that can be raised I’ve seldom seen them in an up position - and then, only when they were raised for cleaning the floor and one or two of them had not been lowered. Second, even if people would need to raise and lower the kneelers at Mass, why can’t they do this noiselessly? In the few cases that I have had to lower a kneeler in a church, it was perfectly possible for me, a woman, to lower the kneeler without banging it.

:clapping::yup:

Exactly. I’ve even placed a pleas in the bulletin fro people to be mindful not to slam the kneelers. They still do. What’s really annoying is the banging on Good Friday: Let us kneel, let us stand.
Apparently people forget from year to year that there is going to be an up down several times during the service. I don’t get it. How hard can it be?
No sense of the time and the place I suppose.

 

[babochka]

In the OF, it is recommended that the tabernacle be placed outside the sanctuary. In such a case, there is no genuflecting during Mass before the consecration. Even when the tabernacle is within the sanctuary, there is no genuflection between the priest’s reverencing of the altar at the start and end of Mass. No Blessed Sacrament, no genuflecting, as a general rule.

In which official and binding documents is this recommendation found? I’ve been in the occasional church in which I must search for the tabernacle, but in the vast majority of cases, the tabernacle is located in the sanctuary. If not directly behind the altar, it is slightly off to the side, but still clearly visible and in the sanctuary. I know that there was a trend in the 80s to move the tabernacle, but this was not directly related to the instructions in the Mass, and in most cases the trend seems to have been reversed.

 

[Digitonomy]

In which official and binding documents is this recommendation found?

The GIRM is relatively neutral about whether the tabernacle should be placed in the sanctuary or a separate chapel:

1. It is more appropriate as a sign that on an altar on which Mass is celebrated there
   not be a tabernacle in which the Most Holy Eucharist is reserved.128
   Consequently, it is preferable that the tabernacle be located, according to the
   judgement of the Diocesan Bishop:
   a) either in the sanctuary, apart from the altar of celebration, in an appropriate
   form and place, not excluding its being positioned on an old altar no longer
   used for celebration (cf. no. 303);
   b) or even in some chapel suitable for the private adoration and prayer of the
   faithful129 and organically connected to the church and readily noticeable by
   the Christian faithful.

 

[Digitonomy]

why all the up and down with kneelers? I have never been to any church where the pews were so close together that it was impossible to stand with the kneelers down!

I have been to a number of churches, mostly older, where it is difficult to stand with the kneelers down - it’s necessary to lean your hand on the back of the pew ahead of you. Which is not very comfortable if you have to bend over a little to put your hand there.
Joan M:

Even where there are pews with kneelers that can be raised I’ve seldom seen them in an up position - and then, only when they were raised for cleaning the floor and one or two of them had not been lowered.

. I have rarely been to a church where the kneelers were not generally put up by parishioners at the end of mass. It’s so normal to me that I consider it slightly rude to do otherwise.
Joan M:

Even where there are pews with kneelers that can be raised

The way you write that it sounds like in your part of the country the kneelers typically can’t be raised? What architectural style are we talking about, and what are the kneelers made of?
Joan M:

Second, even if people would need to raise and lower the kneelers at Mass, why can’t they do this noiselessly? In the few cases that I have had to lower a kneeler in a church, it was perfectly possible for me, a woman, to lower the kneeler without banging it.

I agree that most people could probably lower kneelers almost silently, but it might require considerable concentration and more time. At that point, most people are directing their attention to what’s happening in the sanctuary, their verbal responses, and the whole physical process of lowering themselves into kneeling position as rapidly as possible to continue participating in the mass. Another factor is that many people lower the kneelers with their feet (which are naturally less precise than hands), to avoid placing their hands on the slightly grimy surfaces, or to avoid having to bend over as far. Finally, some kneelers will inevitably have broken hinges, or the rubber feet have fallen off, or for whatever other reason clunk much louder than the typical kneeler in that church, that the parishioner had been expecting.

 

[Weejee]

RE: Location of the Tabernacle.

Thanks for the rules. This is what I have found from experience.

U.S.A. East–the tabernacle is located on the old altar behind the altar where the Mass is said. Congregation can see it.

U.S.A West-- Play find the tabernacle! Can YOU locate it in time to bow? The other day I went to church and the lady bowed before the altar and there was no tabernacle. I looked for the tabernacle and could not find it, so I skipped the bow. I still don’t know where that tabernacle is. In Carlsbad CA, I remember the tabernacle was in a completely different room from the church. groan This was A.D. 2007

Ring around the church-y :harp:

 

[Lormar]

:clapping::yup:

:clapping::yup:

Exactly. I’ve even placed a pleas in the bulletin fro people to be mindful not to slam the kneelers. They still do. What’s really annoying is the banging on Good Friday: Let us kneel, let us stand.
Apparently people forget from year to year that there is going to be an up down several times during the service. I don’t get it. How hard can it be?
No sense of the time and the place I suppose.

I’m with the two of you.

 

[Weejee]

How long ago was that? Was it before the latest changes in the Mass a few years ago? Because the parish I attended as a child in the 70s and 80s, 90s and early 2000s, didn’t bow (nor did others), and we were sometimes rising (or kneeling) when we said the Amen.

Hi Christina (and others),

I moved away from this church in 2004, way before the Mass reforms of 2012. However, in the little paper misalettes we used, it would say in italics (here we bow) or something like that. So I, being the screwball I am, bowed while no one else did.

Oh well. It kept the home fires burning until the reforms of 2012

 

[TimothyH]

[edited]

As a general rule in the EF, Mass is performed using the high altar on which the Blessed Sacrament is reserved. You genuflect throughout Mass towards the Blessed Sacrament.

In the OF, it is recommended that the tabernacle be placed outside the sanctuary. In such a case, there is no genuflecting during Mass before the consecration. Even when the tabernacle is within the sanctuary, there is no genuflection between the priest’s reverencing of the altar at the start and end of Mass. No Blessed Sacrament, no genuflecting, as a general rule.

I have never heard that there was such a recommendation. That’s completely new to me.

-Tim-

 

[pianistclare]

RE: Location of the Tabernacle.

Thanks for the rules. This is what I have found from experience.

U.S.A. East–the tabernacle is located on the old altar behind the altar where the Mass is said. Congregation can see it.

U.S.A West-- Play find the tabernacle! Can YOU locate it in time to bow? The other day I went to church and the lady bowed before the altar and there was no tabernacle. I looked for the tabernacle and could not find it, so I skipped the bow. I still don’t know where that tabernacle is. In Carlsbad CA, I remember the tabernacle was in a completely different room from the church. groan This was A.D. 2007

Ring around the church-y :harp:

When one enters for Mass, one is supposed to bow to the altar, where the Holy Sacrifice will be.

 

[jerome_ky]

:clapping::yup:

:clapping::yup:

Exactly. I’ve even placed a pleas in the bulletin fro people to be mindful not to slam the kneelers. They still do. What’s really annoying is the banging on Good Friday: Let us kneel, let us stand.
Apparently people forget from year to year that there is going to be an up down several times during the service. I don’t get it. How hard can it be?
No sense of the time and the place I suppose.

This is funny to me. In our church we frequently hear the kneelers bang on the floor, but those of us with longer legs totally understand the reason.

Before I enter the pew I always check the kneeler behind and lower it first. This is because if I do not, my feet will hit the kneeler and knock it loudly to the floor. If I forget to lower it but catch myself before kicking, then I have to splay my feet at a very irregular angle. And the same thing occurs after communion when I go back to kneel and someone has lifted the kneeler behind me. So the bottom line is, when I hear kneelers banging, I understand and just smile.

 

[Cat]

I see comments like this frequently from posters who seem to live in the US. It has never made sense to me. First, why all the up and down with kneelers? I have never been to any church where the pews were so close together that it was impossible to stand with the kneelers down! Even where there are pews with kneelers that can be raised I’ve seldom seen them in an up position - and then, only when they were raised for cleaning the floor and one or two of them had not been lowered. Second, even if people would need to raise and lower the kneelers at Mass, why can’t they do this noiselessly? In the few cases that I have had to lower a kneeler in a church, it was perfectly possible for me, a woman, to lower the kneeler without banging it.

Those of us with balance issues and painful joints find it necessary to put the kneelers up. Please don’t judge us. We actually do have a purpose in our actions–preventing pain and injury.

I think that some people put the kneelers up because their little children play on them/walk across them. I’m grateful that these families discourage their little ones from walking on kneelers–those little footprints are kind of messy on the clothing, especially in the winter.

I think that a lot of the “bangs” happen by accident. People try to be quiet, but when the hands or feet are stiff, bangs happen.

And some kneelers “get away” from us, perhaps because they are more thoroughly oiled?

Does it really matter? We don’t stop being human and making human “noises” while we are at Mass. God doesn’t mind, because His Son is human and He understands.

 

[tee_eff_em]

I think that a lot of the “bangs” happen by accident. People try to be quiet, but when the hands or feet are stiff, bangs happen.

I expect you are correct. Surely even when folks are careful, there will be some percentage of slips and errors. So even if 98% of the kneelers are operated quietly, one or two percent banging will echo through the church.

Likewise, even the 98% of kneelers are not completely silent, but generate some small noise – These noises are naturally cumulative and sound much louder in combination.

Does it really matter? We don’t stop being human and making human “noises” while we are at Mass. God doesn’t mind, because His Son is human and He understands.

:clapping:

tee