To Caesar what is Caesar's, unless?

[vluvski]

At what point does it become moral to refuse to pay taxes based on the immoral activities it is funding?

At what point does that moral option become a moral obligation?

Compare this requirement to vaccines. Currently, most states allow for an exemption from required vaccines for religious reasons. The Catholic Church has stated that it is morally acceptable to use vaccines that were formulated using morally objectionable measures in many cases, yet many Catholics still feel compelled to demand alternatives or refuse vaccinations based on moral grounds. Catholic schools have been free to allow “religious” exemptions for Catholic families, or to enforce the gov’t requirement (basically saying the family does not qualify for a religious exemption because the Catholic faith does not prescribe one explicitly) based on the Church’s teaching (lack thereof rather) on the morality of the vaccine.

 

[TravisandJill]

Hmmm good question.

Personally we do not vaccinate our children after finding out that some vaccines are made with aborted fetal tissue in them. I dont know how the church would say its ok to use these?

 

[vluvski]

Hmmm good question.

Personally we do not vaccinate our children after finding out that some vaccines are made with aborted fetal tissue in them. I dont know how the church would say its ok to use these?

The phrase used is something like, “material cooperation.” The premise is that the end use is so far removed from the wrongdoing that the persons receiving or administering the vaccine are free from culpability. The same idea goes for supporting PP donors with our business. We are not obligated to boycott legitimate businesses because they make “charitable” donations to PP or other objectionable “charities.”

I agree with you, though; I am very uncomfortable with the thought of utilizing the product of an abortion, however remote or tangential.

I’m surprised this topic has not generated more interest. Maybe all the political-minded folks are frequentying the politics forum.

 

[puzzleannie]

At what point does it become moral to refuse to pay taxes based on the immoral activities it is funding?

At what point does that moral option become a moral obligation?

.

from my pov that comes the minute FOCA is written into law, if that happens. have already investigated options with lawyer and tax advisor.

 

[vluvski]

kudos to you, puzzleannie, for investigating your options. FOCA is pretty much the reason I posted this thread.

How do we weigh the consequences of civil disobedience against responsibility to our families, for those of us who have people in our care?

 

[Rach620]

My husband and I have been talking about this same issue recently. FOCA and other possibilities of new policies to be enacted if the elections turn out badly today are quite frightening.

As hard as it is to imagine, though, my reflection on “Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s” has led me to believe that tax evasion for pro-life reasons doesn’t jive with Christ’s message. Rome wasn’t a particularly moral place, and the various Caesars weren’t nice guys…taxes paid to Caesar would go towards persecution and immorality of all kinds. Yet Christ told them to pay their taxes, and to instead have hope and trust in God’s promises. I heard a priest recently give a homily on the election to this effect.

So I’m tending to agree with that…intellectually, at least. But I’m having a hard time swallowing it and can’t imagine what we would do if push came to shove.

The future is bleak with an Obama presidency + Democratic Congress. All of the small victories in the pro-life movement of the past few years would be undone in very short order. The 30+ year holocaust of the unborn seems set to continue…

 

[vluvski]

I think it’s important to remember that the ‘to Caesar what is Caesar’s’ line was not a discourse on tax evasion, but a clever response to a question that was intended to be a trap for Jesus.

The Church does support civil disobedience in some cases. For example, consider China where the Chinese “Catholic” Church has replaced the Roman Catholic and other Rites with state-appointed “bishops.” The true Church remains in place only illegally.

Also, the Roman government, while certainly not a bastion of morality, did not fund abortions. If I remember correctly, most of the (legitimate) taxes went toward infrastructure, not wealth redistribution and “family planning.” How else would we have the magnificent aqueducts and roads that are still intact and some still used today? Taxes also probably funded conquest to some degree, but for the most part the pillaging of conquered lands took care of that financial need.

 

[YipYupYep]

Back in the day, my brother refused to pay his Federal Income Tax because of moral objections to the War in Viet Nam. He wrote a detailed letter explaining his position and sent it with his tax return.

As I recall, it took about 12 or 13 months before the IRS leaned all his financial accounts. Checking, saving; that type of thing. Your dead in the water. The IRS does not need to provide the same due process as, say, a bank or credit card company.

I am not suggesting that you do so, however, any accounts somehow not associated with your SS# or your spouse, will be invisible to them.

Step two. They will garnish your paycheck at your employment that is associated with your SS#.

Here is what I think. Its almost impossible to get the better of these guys.

 

[vluvski]

Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut, YYY.

I guess discussing whether it is moral to pay taxes to a gov’t that calls abortion a fundamental right and funds abortions isn’t something people are interested in right now.

Personally, I hate the idea of paying taxes to a gov’t that establishes abortion as a fundamental right. IMO this is the point where it becomes morally acceptable to refuse to pay taxes or work within the system to avoid them.

When funding of abortion becomes an appreciable percentage of gov’t spending is when I would say it becomes a moral obligation to avoid/refuse to pay taxes. IMO your approach needs to be balanced by your ability to deal with the consequences. For some, it might mean increasing charitable giving to decrease the amount paid in taxes. For others, cutting back to one income. Only in extreme cases does outright refusal seem prudent.

Also, I believe the Church expects us to be prepared to accept the consequences when we exercise an obligation to civil disobedience. If I was certain of my moral obligation and chose to evade taxes illegally and was caught, I would be expected to bravely face the consequences just a martyrs accepted their deaths simply for being Christian.

 

[ChristinaM]

Hey, I’m so glad someone started this thread. I was wondering about this myself. I would be very, very conflicted if taxpayer-funded abortions became commonplace, which is a very real possibility right now. On the one hand, I think we are called to be good citizens, and our tax dollars already fund Planned Parenthood unfortunately. On the other hand, we are also called to speak out against unjust laws. I don’t see how it could possibly be just to use citizens’ money to pay for legalized murder. Maybe you could submit this to AAA and see what Fr. Serpa says?

For some, it might mean increasing charitable giving to decrease the amount paid in taxes.

This is my immediate plan. I’m going to give it away before it gets taken from me!

Also, I believe the Church expects us to be prepared to accept the consequences when we exercise an obligation to civil disobedience.

This is important to remember - if you want to refuse to pay taxes to make a statement, you have to be prepared to be treated as a criminal. That’s hard and I don’t know if I have the courage to do that yet.

 

[AndyF]

vluvski

It is just one case of many due to the effect of the misconception of what constitutes a common good. What is missed is that the source of common good cannot have come from or have been the product of evil.

Since the advent of the new Church at Pentecost, all other religions are to cease, Civil Authority is to find guidance from the Church Authority. In such an ideal envisaged by Christ, rendering unto Caesar will always result in a full circle common good, because civil Authority would only enact laws it has received approval from the Church.

We are witnessing the effect
of an obstinate society who claims the same Authority of God and feels in partnership with the Church. For it’s part the Church remains silent wishing to remain politically correct but knowing full well it’s mandate.

Therefore ideally rendering unto Caesar renders unto God. Sadly, the realization of this lack of conformity will not become evident until the end of days.

Andy

 

[MrZoom]

Hey, I’m so glad someone started this thread. I was wondering about this myself. I would be very, very conflicted if taxpayer-funded abortions became commonplace, which is a very real possibility right now. On the one hand, I think we are called to be good citizens, and our tax dollars already fund Planned Parenthood unfortunately. On the other hand, we are also called to speak out against unjust laws. I don’t see how it could possibly be just to use citizens’ money to pay for legalized murder. **Maybe you could submit this to AAA and see what Fr. Serpa says? **

Hi Christina and everyone,

I submitted the question to AAA and Michelle Arnold answered it.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=283489

 

[vluvski]

Thanks, MrZoom and Michelle.

So, at no point are we obligated to withhold taxes, according to Michelle Arnold’s response.

 

[ChristinaM]

Thanks, MrZoom and Michelle.

So, at no point are we obligated to withhold taxes, according to Michelle Arnold’s response.

Thanks a bunch for submitting the question. Good answer, too. It makes our responsibilities with regard to taxes much clearer.

 

[Ruthie]

For some, it might mean increasing charitable giving to decrease the amount paid in taxes.

Ah! What a great idea…

Here’s my thought. First, find out what percent of my taxes goes to fund abortions. Figure out that sum, and donate that amount, in addition to what I already donate, to my local crisis pregnancy center.

Our double it, or triple it…

Thanks for inspiring me!

I’m sure our normal sources for pro-life news will supply us with that percentage.

A little happier, now,

Ruthie

 

[rayr]

This is a great topic. It is something that I have been wrestling with for some time. Michelle Arnold’s answer helped but did not solve my dilemna. I will continue to pray on it.

 

[BlestOne]

from my pov that comes the minute FOCA is written into law, if that happens. have already investigated options with lawyer and tax advisor.

Totally agree… Vluvski… did you see my post in Family about this? I even asked Archbishop Chaput his opinion of this matter…

 

[RobHom]

Ah! What a great idea…

Here’s my thought. First, find out what percent of my taxes goes to fund abortions. Figure out that sum, and donate that amount, in addition to what I already donate, to my local crisis pregnancy center.

Our double it, or triple it…

Thanks for inspiring me!

I’m sure our normal sources for pro-life news will supply us with that percentage.

A little happier, now,

Ruthie

This is an excellent idea!!

One place that may be of consideration would be an organization that provides services to women desiring to keep their unborn children but are in financial distress.

I heard a program on the “Catholic Channel” today… and the guest was the President of the Rutherford Institute that was really great…here is the link for it…and this article covers much of what was said… rutherford.org/articles_db/commentary.asp?record_id=562

Before responding…please read the entire article…it makes some very good suggestions, and one of them is to donate to help support poor or economically deprived women who are possibly considering abortion as a solution. There are organizations that will help these women…we need to support them, both the organizations as well as the women as a definite method of reducing the number of abortions.

What better charity could there be?

 

[vz71]

At the time Jesus uttered these words, what was the Roman goverment up to?

I would wager that all of the nefarious acts we attribute to our own pale in comparison.

Render unto Caeser. There is no choice, therefore no culpability.

 

[RobHom]

If you think that you have moral grounds to refuse to pay income taxes…if you are a US Citizen or legal resident covered by US tax laws…you might want to visit this site and read:

savingadvice.com/forums/taxes/26147-10-stupid-arguments-not-paying-income-tax.html

The only possible way to reduce your tax liability is through legal means…

Or you can go about it the way this fellow has… paynoincometax.com/ But as you can tell, his “righteous” battle against the government and the IRS hasn’t been all that successful…

According to this site there are some interesting facts about who and who does not have to pay taxes… taxfoundation.org/research/show/542.html

If you wish to reduce your tax liability…do it legally.