To Cardinal Newman said, "To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant."

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Jumping in very far along here, apologies if anyone else addressed this but–
was Cardinal Newman specifically referring to Anglicans with this quote? Because Anglicans are via media, not Protestant. And some Anglicans would say that Anglicans are far more “Catholic” than “Protestant.”
The upshot is, the cardinal’s quote doesn’t bother me at all, since it doesn’t apply to me.
That’s exactly the point I’ve been making.

The view of Anglicanism that you describe was basically invented by Newman and his friends. It is precisely the view that Newman is arguing against in the rest of the Essay. Hence, as steve b has pointed out, Newman would later refer to Anglicans as Protestants. But in the Essay he’s still using that terminology, I think. Steve thinks he can’t be because the Essay led Newman to become Catholic. I think Steve’s being illogical–Newman can still be distinguishing between “Anglicanism” and “Protestantism” even in the course of making the argument that would eventually lead him to lump Anglicans in with Protestants. You can decide for yourself!

I would further argue that many modern Protestants, at least the more educated ones, hold to something more like Newman’s “Anglicanism” than his “Protestantism.”

Edwin
 
Jumping in very far along here, apologies if anyone else addressed this but–
was Cardinal Newman specifically referring to Anglicans with this quote? Because ***Anglicans are via media, not Protestant. ***some Anglicans would say that Anglicans are far more “Catholic” than “Protestant.”
The upshot is, the cardinal’s quote doesn’t bother me at all, since it doesn’t apply to me.
Yes he was referring to Anglicans as a particular form of Protestantism

To remove any doubt about that, Newman clarified

“….Such, then, is the Anglican Church and its Via Media, {377} and such the practical application of it; it is an interposition or arbitration between the extreme doctrines of Protestantism on the one hand, and the faith of Rome which Protestantism contradicts on the other. At the same time, though it may be unwilling to allow it, it is, from the nature of the case, but a particular form of Protestantism. I do not say that in secondary principles it may not agree with the Catholic Church; but, its essential idea being that she has gone into error, whereas the essential idea of Catholicism is the Church’s infallibility, the Via Media is really nothing else than Protestant. Not to submit to the Church is to oppose her, and to side with the heretical party; for medium there is none…” from section 4 paragraph 3

Full context
 
I suspect you have a library most libraries are jealous of

No surprise there
The bulk of it is sort of getting out of hand. Rented a 2nd climate controlled storage unit. But had to give up my lifetime dream of a dedicated library addition to the house. Wouldn’t have held more than maybe 1/4 of the total, but it would have been the culmination of my collecting.

Age crept up on me.
 
Jumping in very far along here, apologies if anyone else addressed this but–
was Cardinal Newman specifically referring to Anglicans with this quote? Because Anglicans are via media, not Protestant. And some Anglicans would say that Anglicans are far more “Catholic” than “Protestant.”
The upshot is, the cardinal’s quote doesn’t bother me at all, since it doesn’t apply to me.
I predict that we will go 8 or 9 more laps around this course before this thread is through. :cool:
 
My mother said I was 32 when I was born.
Ahhh that would make sense. I still thought you were older. 🤷

I promise, I won’t ever make your youth and inexperience an issue, … 😃 to borrow a very funny line from Reagan
 
Ahhh that would make sense. I still thought you were older. 🤷

I promise, I won’t ever make your youth and inexperience an issue, … 😃 to borrow a very funny line from Reagan
I think I’m around 103, if mother’s estimate was correct.
 
I predict that we will go 8 or 9 more laps around this course before this thread is through. :cool:
Don’t all extended threads wind up doing that? By the time they get to 1000 posts, everything has been said…and said…🙂
 
Don’t all extended threads wind up doing that? By the time they get to 1000 posts, everything has been said…and said…🙂
Hold on … I think I’m beginning to entertain a negative impression of discussion forums. :o
 
That’s exactly the point I’ve been making.

The view of Anglicanism that you describe was basically invented by Newman and his friends. It is precisely the view that Newman is arguing against in the rest of the Essay. Hence, as steve b has pointed out, Newman would later refer to Anglicans as Protestants. But in the Essay he’s still using that terminology, I think. Steve thinks he can’t be because the Essay led Newman to become Catholic. I think Steve’s being illogical–Newman can still be distinguishing between “Anglicanism” and “Protestantism” even in the course of making the argument that would eventually lead him to lump Anglicans in with Protestants. You can decide for yourself!

I would further argue that many modern Protestants, at least the more educated ones, hold to something more like Newman’s “Anglicanism” than his “Protestantism.”

Edwin
Newman identified Anglicanism as Protestantism #320
If he didn’t already believe that when he wrote his essay, one could ask then logically why did he leave where he was?
 
Newman identified Anglicanism as Protestantism #320
If he didn’t already believe that when he wrote his essay, one could ask then logically why did he leave where he was?
Because he came to believe that “Anglicanism” was wrong in more complex and less obvious ways than “Protestantism.” In the Essay he was still using the vocabulary of his “Anglican” period, even as he was arguing his way into Catholic beliefs. I don’t know why this is so hard for you to understand.

Edwin
 
Because he came to believe that “Anglicanism” was wrong in more complex and less obvious ways than “Protestantism.” In the Essay he was still using the vocabulary of his “Anglican” period, even as he was arguing his way into Catholic beliefs. I don’t know why this is so hard for you to understand.

Edwin
I don’t know why this is so hard for you to understand , that he had already made up his mind about leaving, before he finished his essay, and THAT comes from his own words. Note the dates from ( 1841-1845 ) that this part of his journey took place. That’s the point I’ve been making
…I have nothing more to say on the subject of the change in my religious opinions. On the one hand I came gradually to see that the Anglican Church was formally in the wrong, on the other that the Church of Rome was formally in the right; then, that no valid reasons could be assigned for continuing in the Anglican, and again that no valid objections could be taken to joining the Roman. Then, I had nothing more to learn; what still remained for my conversion, was, not further change of opinion, but to change opinion itself into the clearness and firmness of intellectual conviction. Now I proceed to detail the acts, to which I committed myself during this last stage of my inquiry.
Code:
    In 1843, I took two very significant steps:—1. In         February, I made a formal Retractation of all the hard things which I         had said against the Church of Rome. 2. In September, I resigned the         Living of St. Mary's, Littlemore included:—I will speak of         these two acts separately.......
 
I don’t know why this is so hard for you to understand , that he had already made up his mind about leaving, before he finished his essay, and THAT comes from his own words. Note the dates from ( 1841-1845 ) that this part of his journey took place. That’s the point I’ve been making
Obviously it isn’t hard for me to understand, since I’ve said it a number of times.

The logic of the Essay, yet again is:
  1. “Protestantism” (affirming sola scriptura over against the witness of the Fathers) is condemned out of hand by its rejection of history.
  2. “Anglicanism” appears plausible because it attempts to construct a sort of pristine early Catholicism based on the witness of the Fathers.
  3. But this argument ignores the reality of doctrinal development within the patristic period itself, and is thus inconsistent. There is no pristine period, but a constant process of doctrinal development guided by the Magisterium of a living Church.
You’re too hung up on terminology. You assume that as soon as he decided Catholicism was true he would drop the Anglicanism/Protestantism distinction. You don’t see that he needs it in order to make the argument he’s making in the essay, which is an argument against neo-patristic Protestantism (what he calls “Anglicanism”), not against strictly “Biblicist” Protestantism (what he calls “Protestantism”).

You keep ignoring the context and structure of the work as a whole.

Edwin
 
Obviously it isn’t hard for me to understand, since I’ve said it a number of times.

The logic of the Essay, yet again is:
  1. “Protestantism” (affirming sola scriptura over against the witness of the Fathers) is condemned out of hand by its rejection of history.
  2. “Anglicanism” appears plausible because it attempts to construct a sort of pristine early Catholicism based on the witness of the Fathers.
  3. But this argument ignores the reality of doctrinal development within the patristic period itself, and is thus inconsistent. There is no pristine period, but a constant process of doctrinal development guided by the Magisterium of a living Church.
You’re too hung up on terminology. You assume that as soon as he decided Catholicism was true he would drop the Anglicanism/Protestantism distinction. You don’t see that he needs it in order to make the argument he’s making in the essay, which is an argument against neo-patristic Protestantism (what he calls “Anglicanism”), not against strictly “Biblicist” Protestantism (what he calls “Protestantism”).

You keep ignoring the context and structure of the work as a whole.

Edwin
The terminology I used was from Newman

as I quoted previously, all emphasis mine

"…I have nothing more to say on the subject of the change in my religious opinions. On the one hand I came gradually to see that the Anglican Church was formally in the wrong, on the other that the Church of Rome was formally in the right; then, that no valid reasons could be assigned for continuing in the Anglican, and again that no valid objections could be taken to joining the Roman. Then, *I had nothing more to learn; *what still remained for my conversion, was, not further change of opinion, but to change opinion itself into the clearness and firmness of intellectual conviction. Now I proceed to detail the acts, to which I committed myself during this last stage of my inquiry.

In 1843, I took two very significant steps:—1. In February, I made a formal Retractation of all the hard things which I had said against the Church of Rome. 2. In September, I resigned the Living of St. Mary’s, Littlemore included:—I will speak of these two acts separately…"

From and for context: newmanreader.org/works/ap…hapter4-2.html

I would just add from that context

"May 4, 1843 … At present I fear, as far as I can analyze my own convictions, I consider the Roman Catholic Communion to be the Church of the Apostles, and that what grace is among us (which, through God’s mercy, is not little) is extraordinary, and from the over-flowings of His dispensation. I am very far more sure that England is in schism, than that the Roman additions {209} to the Primitive Creed may not be developments, arising out of a keen and vivid realizing of the Divine Depositum of Faith.
“You will now understand what gives edge to the Bishops’ Charges, without any undue sensitiveness on my part. They distress me in two ways:—first, as being in some sense protests and witnesses to my conscience against my own unfaithfulness to the English Church, and next, as being samples of her teaching, and tokens how very far she is from even aspiring to Catholicity.”
 
Cardinal Newman said, “To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant.” Why don’t more Protestant historians become Catholic?

This was a very interesting thing when I saw the apologist question and answer. It was in fact a very interesting thing. Let me explain quickly.

I grew up Protestant never really thinking about much or even Catholicism. Until I met my fiancee who was a very Polish Catholic. She was doing her bachelors in History and I love history. So obviously we got into it very deep. Long story short, today, 2 years later she is very Protestant and I can after going so deep into history, say, because of History, I can’t see myself becoming Catholic any time soon.

Can some people tell me maybe how history taught them otherwise. And please, we all know the basics, I mean in depth history that makes sense. I am not here to accuse anyone, I would just like to know some understandings.
The history of christianity indicates that Protestantism is a break from the entire church before it. Whether you determine that the patristic texts indicate the fathers were more in line with the Orthodox east or the Catholic west, it is clear that the fathers professed a faith that was traditional with a hierarchical structure and a sacramental view of the faith.
 
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