To Christians with female clergy

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Rosebud77 said:
You miss the point. Fathers do not carry a baby inside them for nine months.
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No but they do provide 50% of that life in the mother’s womb. And fatherhood as vocation is no less than motherhood. Believe me.
Rosebud77 said:
How can they be? carrying a baby inside you for nine months cancels out any idea of co-equal, as does the act of giving birth
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Totally disagree. There would be no life in the mother without the father. And if in what Catholics would consider an ordered relationship, we may not physically carry the baby, but believe me, we do a large amount of our own heavy lifting as men during the pregnancy and beyond. Yes the pregnancy is a unique, wonderful, and often trying aspect of parenthood unique to women, but men have an equal hand in making it possible, and equal hand in what happens after birth, and our own unique burdens to face during the 9 months of pregnancy that I’d argue are and equally challenging task.
 
Padres1969 said:
No but they do provide 50% of that life in the mother’s womb. And fatherhood as vocation is no less than motherhood. Believe me.

Totally disagree. There would be no life in the mother without the father. And if in what Catholics would consider an ordered relationship, we may not physically carry the baby, but believe me, we do a large amount of our own heavy lifting as men during the pregnancy and beyond. Yes the pregnancy is a unique, wonderful, and often trying aspect of parenthood unique to women, but men have an equal hand in making it possible, and equal hand in what happens after birth, and our own unique burdens to face during the 9 months of pregnancy that I’d argue are and equally challenging task.
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I’m not sure why you are arguing against a self evident and obvious point.
A mother is not a father, and a father is not a mother.
Big 🤷

Mothers and fathers are equal in human dignity and rights.
But they are not the same thing.
Motherhood is unique, as is fatherhood.
 
goout said:
I’m not sure why you are arguing against a self evident and obvious point.
A mother is not a father, and a father is not a mother.
Big 🤷

Mothers and fathers are equal in human dignity and rights.
But they are not the same thing.
Motherhood is unique, as is fatherhood.
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I’m arguing because the implication is being made that fatherhood is not an equal and opposite vocation to motherhood. Which is untrue.
 
Padres1969 said:
Re-read post 52
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Rosebud is taking issue with mothers and fathers under the umbrella of co-equal.

So I suppose you have to define “co-equal”.
Her point was in the context of mother’s giving birth, not in denying their equality.

What do you mean by “co-equal”.
Things like equality under the law and equality in human dignity do not cancel the unique characteristics of motherhood and fatherhood.
Both are commonly parents. Each is unique.
 
Thorolfr said:
Of course Contarini did say, “or any other particular aspect of His incarnate humanity”. We could possibly make a long list of other characteristics besides his Jewishness and his maleness.
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Exactly. My point was that Jesus’ Jewishness is the one specific characteristic of his humanity that we have most reason to believe is salvifically relevant.

Edwin
 
Contarini said:
Exactly. My point was that Jesus’ Jewishness is the one specific characteristic of his humanity that we have most reason to believe is salvifically relevant.

Edwin
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If only there was some sort of church that almost Catholic in many things, and yet… not Catholic on some other things…
 
goout said:
Rosebud is taking issue with mothers and fathers under the umbrella of co-equal.

So I suppose you have to define “co-equal”.
Her point was in the context of mother’s giving birth, not in denying their equality.

What do you mean by “co-equal”.
Things like equality under the law and equality in human dignity do not cancel the unique characteristics of motherhood and fatherhood.
Both are commonly parents. Each is unique.
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Thank you;I am glad that someone understands that I am not in any way insulting anyone. Back to equality not being homogeneity. You lose so much when you go down that road…
 
Rosebud77 said:
Thank you;I am glad that someone understands that I am not in any way insulting anyone. Back to equality not being homogeneity. You lose so much when you go down that road…
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👍

I feel that you can loose so much goodness when you try to make everything artificially homogenous. As individuals, we are so much more than everything we share in common - as God has created us as individuals, God has given us different gifts.
 
Padres1969 said:
Regarding your first question, I’d say it was a combination of sexism, cultural obstacles and preceding generations letting the inherent sexism and culture of their time color their reading of the gospels. Regarding the second question, that said I don’t think I’d go so far as to say preceding generations were being purposefully unjust or rebelling against the Gospels. They were products of their time. Women in most societies until the last century were not seen as equals to men (and in many they still are not), and were treated as second class persons. That was just a fact of life and it colored everything men did, including reading the gospels. And such a profound equality could be missed because humans are by our very nature fallible beings, including the institutions we are left to shepherd in Christ’s absence, and that cultural/societal injustice colored everything men did for a very long time. It still does to some extent or another in every country on Earth (even those who fell women have achieved near equality today). Something that ingrained in a culture takes a very long time to overcome.

That said, I don’t expect the Roman Catholic Church to ever change course on the issue. It has been long established by the RCC that they will not ordain women. And that was established in a manner that can’t be retracted or revisited. Other Christian denominations are not so restricted.
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How about the different Eastern Catholic churches?

How about the Eastern Orthodox churches?

How about the Oriental Orthodox churches?

How about any other ancient Christian church?

FWIW, the Catholic Church (both the the Western and Eastern halves) is not a “denomination.” They, along with the Orthodox make-up God’s Church.
 
benjohnson said:
👍

I feel that you can loose so much goodness when you try to make everything artificially homogenous. As individuals, we are so much more than everything we share in common - as God has created us as individuals, God has given us different gifts.
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👍
 
Just to move in a bit of a different direction, 40 years ago, on 9/16/76, the Episcopal Church voted to ordain women to the Priesthood and Episcopacy. Today, our clergy are 52% men and 48% women. We have, if I am counting correctly, 18 Bishops who are women, most active, some retired.

It is who we are as a church and it is good and holy.

http://www.sltrib.com/csp/mediapool/sites/dt.common.streams.StreamServer.cls?STREAMOID=ylAf5ZFJd4u_y90t6gG7sc$daE2N3K4ZzOUsqbU5sYsIvcUtkwTHzeqEwrLbWr$eWCsjLu883Ygn4B49Lvm9bPe2QeMKQdVeZmXF$9l$4uCZ8QDXhaHEp3rvzXRJFdy0KqPHLoMevcTLo3h8xh70Y6N_U_CryOsw6FTOdKL_jpQ-&CONTENTTYPE=image/jpeg
 
Thorolfr said:
Of course Contarini did say, “or any other particular aspect of His incarnate humanity”. We could possibly make a long list of other characteristics besides his Jewishness and his maleness.
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Hard to agree or argue with nebulous statements.
 
Contarini said:
And again, the point is that Jesus’ Jewishness is the aspect of his humanity we have most reason to believe is salvifically relevant.
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I’ve already addressed that, and look forward to any rebuttal. I was discounting the nebulous hand-waving of the other post (not by you).
 
I don’t think the world in the past “had it right” when it comes to women, though they didn’t have it all wrong either. I suppose the best answer is that the most of the world has always been somewhat confused & wrong on women (and men, but that’s another topic).

Fact is: 100 years ago you could be a female that painted the Mona Lisa and the world wouldn’t want to give you credit for it. Put yourself in that position and tell me it wouldn’t make your blood boil. I could name many other scenarios, but the summation is that the female sex was treated unfairly in many ways, and I don’t think you need to be a so-named feminist progressive to acknowledge that.

On the other hand, nothing is new under the sun. These days, women are visually consumed as objects in mass quantity, pressured into contraceptives and abortion, passively pushed into anorexia, and any number of other things. There’s still plenty ways females are oppressed, and many of them are more prominent. So in some ways life is better for them, and in other ways not.
 
So last week I told my fundamentalist mother that her female pastor is not really a pastor in the eyes of the Lord. :eek: That went over real well 😛 :tsktsk::nunchuk:

This is one of those issues that the scriptures seem pretty clear about. 🤷 1 Timothy 2:12-14 Yes we are all equal, but God recognizes the man as the spiritual head of the house and Churches as well. Eve sins first but God recognizes Adam’s sin as the original sin because it’s his structure.

I don’t know why the Lord set it up this way but I guess he has his reasons. Personally I don’t object to it as females are often more Godly and spiritual than men are, imo. But the Church and the scriptures say no, so that’s that.
 
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