To die/preach?

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Hello all. We all know that Jesus’ death is part of God’s salvation. But i got a question : do you believe Jesus came “to die” or to preach “but was crucified”? these are 2 theological schools/responses. Both interpretations reach the same end btw ( whether the first or second interpretation, Jesus’ death is part of our salvation plan)…I believe in the second one. Any thoughts? thank you 🙂
 
inJESUS said:
Hello all. We all know that Jesus’ death is part of God’s salvation. But i got a question : do you believe Jesus came “to die” or to preach “but was crucified”? these are 2 theological schools/responses. Both interpretations reach the same end btw ( whether the first or second interpretation, Jesus’ death is part of our salvation plan)…I believe in the second one. Any thoughts? thank you 🙂
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All of Scripture points to the death of the Savior as being the primary purpose for God entering into the world. However, it cannot be separated from His public ministry. As the old statement goes, “We are all born to live but Christ was born to die.”
 
If he was only born to die then the massacre of the infants could have done that.
 
i believe he came to preach not to die because if he came to die it means all those who contributed to his crucifixion were pre-destined…Judas as well was pre-destined which i can’t believe…
 
Matthew 10:35
For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’

Mark 1:38
But He said to them, “Let us go into the next towns, that I may preach there also, because for this purpose I have come forth.”

Luke 13:7
Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, ‘Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?’

John 5:43
I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive.

John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

John 9:39
And Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind.”

John 10:10
The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

John 12:46
I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness.

John 18:37
Pilate therefore said to Him, “Are You a king then?” Jesus answered, “You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”

(excuse the translation - it was more convenient)
 
I also believe it was both. God’s plans can’t be thwarted by our free-will, where one human chooses differently, another will do what is required.
 
ALLFORHIM said:
Hi,

I think He came to do both.😃
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yes but did God pre-determine it or did He know it? because knowing and causing are 2 different things. I believe God knew it and allowed it as a part of His salvation but not that He caused Judas to betray Jesus for example.
 
Free-will vs pre-destination: this is the question

If God knows everything (and He does), doesn’t He know if we are going to heaven or hell already? But didn’t He give us free will? The answer to both is yes.

Can we understand this rationally? Not really but we can come up with some good examples.

Imagine a mouse that smells cheese and wants to get to it. The only problem is, the mouse is in a maze and I’ve put the cheese in a location that is impossible for the mouse to ever get to. Have I taken away the mouses’ free will? I don’t think so.

There are other really good ones too, do a search.
 
HailMary, from your responses, i understood that you believe Jesus came to die.
My question is : if Jesus had to die, then someone had to betray him and someone had to crucify him …it is as if God pre-destined this person (Judas for ex) to do something and later he commited suicide! Even Jesus woed him. Do you have a different interpretation because i don’t have one. thx:)

to those who said both , can you explain how please?

thank you all 🙂
 
inJESUS said:
HailMary, from your responses, i understood that you believe Jesus came to die.
My question is : if Jesus had to die, then someone had to betray him and someone had to crucify him …it is as if God pre-destined this person (Judas for ex) to do something and later he commited suicide! Even Jesus woed him. Do you have a different interpretation because i don’t have one. thx:)

to those who said both , can you explain how please?

thank you all 🙂
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No, you are using faulty logic. It was not necessary that he was betrayed nor was it necessary that he was crucified. However, his death was necessary because that is how God willed it - as showen in part by the scripture passaged cited above. He did not have to die at the age of 33 nor did one of the twelve have to betry him those are all technically incidental to his death. Rather Christ Himself tells us that the reason why he came into the world was to die when he says:

But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet: for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The men of Nineveh shall stand up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, a greater than Jonah is here. The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, a greater than Solomon is here. But the unclean spirit, when he is gone out of the man, passeth through waterless places, seeking rest, and findeth it not. Then he saith, I will return into my house whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man becometh worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this evil generation.
(Mat 12:39-45)

and again:

And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall be delivered up into the hands of men; and they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised up. And they were exceeding sorry.
(Mat 17:22-23)
 
inJESUS said:
Hello all. We all know that Jesus’ death is part of God’s salvation. But i got a question : do you believe Jesus came “to die” or to preach “but was crucified”? these are 2 theological schools/responses. Both interpretations reach the same end btw ( whether the first or second interpretation, Jesus’ death is part of our salvation plan)…I believe in the second one. Any thoughts? thank you 🙂
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1 And he began to speak to them in parables. “A man planted a vineyard, and set a hedge around it, and dug a pit for the wine press, and built a tower, and let it out to tenants, and went into another country. 2 When the time came, he sent a servant to the tenants, to get from them some of the fruit of the vineyard. 3 And they took him and beat him, and sent him away empty-handed. 4 Again he sent to them another servant, and they wounded him in the head, and treated him shamefully. 5 And he sent another, and him they killed; and so with many others, some they beat and some they killed. 6 He had still one other, a beloved son; finally he sent him to them, saying, **‘They will respect my son.’**7 But those tenants said to one another, 'This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.’ 8 And they took him and killed him, and cast him out of the vineyard. 9 What will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the tenants, and give the vineyard to others. 10 Have you not read this scripture: ‘The very stone which the builders rejected has become the head of the corner; 11 this was the Lord’s doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes’?” 12 And they tried to arrest him, but feared the multitude, for they perceived that he had told the parable against them; so they left him and went away.
Mark 12 (same as Matt 21 & Luke 20)
The plan of God wasnt that people die, but knowing everything He made their wicked deeds play into His master plan. He entrusted the care to the Jews, and they turned around and disobeyed Him, God proceeded to send prophets and the Jews mistreted them, finally Jesus was sent and they killed Him. Jesus was sent to serve, He was the perfect preacher because He not only preached in word but in deed, especially giving His life for us.

“Preach the Gospel at all times, if necessary use words”-St Francis
 
brothers, of course Jesus predicted his death; i have absolutely no doubt regarding this.

Am trying to differentiate between knowing and causing. God in His knowledge knew it or caused it?

i personally say God knew it and allowed it and not that He caused it .

this is not a debate. It’s just about opinions because, after all, we are trying to get into God’s mind 🙂

thx again to all your (name removed by moderator)ut and God bless 🙂
 
Catholic_Dude said:
The plan of God wasnt that people die, but knowing everything He made their wicked deeds play into His master plan. He entrusted the care to the Jews, and they turned around and disobeyed Him, God proceeded to send prophets and the Jews mistreted them, finally Jesus was sent and they killed Him. Jesus was sent to serve, He was the perfect preacher because He not only preached in word but in deed, especially giving His life for us.

“Preach the Gospel at all times, if necessary use words”-St Francis
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yep, God knew about Jesus’ death and turned it into His plan…(He turned the wicked deed into the Glory of Resurrection…), not that God planned it Himself…that’s what i believe …
 
Both. :yup:

Jesus is both the Word of God (come to spread his message to all corners of the Earth) and the sacrificial Lamb of God, who gave his life to take away our sins and preserve our unworthy hides.
 
inJESUS said:
Hello all. We all know that Jesus’ death is part of God’s salvation. But i got a question : do you believe Jesus came “to die” or to preach “but was crucified”? these are 2 theological schools/responses. Both interpretations reach the same end btw ( whether the first or second interpretation, Jesus’ death is part of our salvation plan)…I believe in the second one. Any thoughts? thank you 🙂
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I believe that Jesus came “to die” and that He knew this always. For instance, at the wedding in Cana, at the beginning of His ministry, when He said “My hour has not yet come.”(John 2:4) All of His ministry was to lead up to His death on the cross.
 
inJESUS said:
yes but did God pre-determine it or did He know it? because knowing and causing are 2 different things. I believe God knew it and allowed it as a part of His salvation but not that He caused Judas to betray Jesus for example.
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Hi,

I dont think I could give you a good answer or one that would satisfy anyone(not even me). The Scriptures cited above said it all. God has a plan for us and we dont know what it is. Jesus was part of the plan. I think predestination and free will is one of those mysteries we wont understand until we are in heaven.👍
 
I prefer to think of it as Jesus coming to “give his life”, meaning all of it. Of course his death was the climax and perfection of this gift, but the mountain is more than just the summit.

Of course, he also came to testify, but even that did not consist of just words. God could have inspired another person to deliver any message, but no one else could be and do all he did.
 
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