To Evangelicals:

[Mickey]

ahimsaman72:

If you read the entire New Testament and do not pick and choose verses for doctrine, you can see the progression and truth of the structure of the church (as spoken of by Paul) and realize that 3 or 4 verses which might support your view are trumped by the whole rest of the Scriptures.

Greetings ahim!

Can you elaborate on this, because Scripture does not contradict itself.

 

[ahimsaman72]

Mickey:

Greetings ahim!

Can you elaborate on this, because Scripture does not contradict itself.

Greetings ole’ friend Mickey!

Paul’s ministry and that of Barnabas and Silas and Timothy show me that an apostle was given authority to elect bishops (overseers in some translations) and deacons of each church they started. In Paul’s case he made Timothy bishop with the duties of controlling the church and having deacons.

Here are instructions to Timothy from Paul:

1 Timothy 3

1. This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3. Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4. One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5. (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6. Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7. Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8. Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
9. Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
10. And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless

These directions were given by an apostle, not by Rome, not by Peter, not by John. They were from the apostle who wasn’t even among the original twelve. Where I am going is that if you look where “churches” are spoken of - they are not “lorded over” by central command in Rome. They are ruled by the overseers and the elders appointed to them by apostles.

So, it is as the Orthodox claim it to be. There was no supremacy of Rome in the early church. Apostles went to various parts of the known world, ordained bishops and so forth. That’s not the hard to track. The Orthodox (like Father Ambrose) can readily point to their apostolic succession and hand over that info.

That’s what I was trying to convey in my previous post.

Peace…

 

[ahimsaman72]

Mickey:

Greetings ahim!

Can you elaborate on this, because Scripture does not contradict itself.

You are actually right. Scripture does not contradict itself. It is us that maybe misunderstands the meaning of certain passages. I readily admit my faults at understanding and interpreting Scriptures at times. Truth is certainly hard to come by. We each look at Scriptures in our own ways. As hard as we may try, I don’t think anyone can objectively (purely) understand all aspects and meanings of the written record.

Peace…

 

[Exporter]

I will throw out a thought or two.

The missionaries and the Apostles who were missionaries were teaching [spreading] the teachings of Jesus Christ in the first years of the Church. In our Nicine Creed we say, " And I believe in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church".

It is evident that the Early Fathers who wrote the Apostle’s Creed believed that same thing. That is that the Church was Holy, It was ONE, it was Catholic and it was Apostolic. Apostolic means it was like and taught what the original twelve taught.

The Pentacostal and the Evangelical churches stem from main-stream Protestant religions. It is ludicrous to maintain that some secret variety of church has been given to the world having been started in secret (nothing is written) back in the 2ed Century.

 

[ahimsaman72]

Exporter:

I will throw out a thought or two.

The missionaries and the Apostles who were missionaries were teaching [spreading] the teachings of Jesus Christ in the first years of the Church. In our Nicine Creed we say, " And I believe in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church".

It is evident that the Early Fathers who wrote the Apostle’s Creed believed that same thing. That is that the Church was Holy, It was ONE, it was Catholic and it was Apostolic. Apostolic means it was like and taught what the original twelve taught.

I believe you are right here. I believe it was an apostolic and unified church, but unified in faith, not in rules and government control from one source. I don’t see it originally commanded and steered from Rome. I guess that’s the sticking point for me.

The Pentacostal and the Evangelical churches stem from main-stream Protestant religions. It is ludicrous to maintain that some secret variety of church has been given to the world having been started in secret (nothing is written) back in the 2ed Century.

I certainly don’t believe there were any “secret” Baptists or other denoms in the early days. Slowly, over time (as can be seen in every other world religion) the people changed. Their ideas changed. They began to look at things differently and understand things differently. It’s part of human nature to change and develop. Nothing ever remains the same.

As humans we have progressed in our understanding. It was a lack of understanding and knowledge to assume that thunder and lightning were caused by spirits in the sky that were attempting to scare the inhabitants of the earth. Now, obviously, we know there are natural, scientific good reasons for thunder and lightning.

That’s the way I see it.

Hope it makes some sense, but remember the source it is coming from, will ya?

Good to hear from you ole friend.

Peace…