To Forgive, or Not to Forgive?

[spockrates]

That is the question! Something Jesus said makes me wonder about the answer:

“Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven."

(Luke 6:36-37)

Is He saying that if we don’t forgive everyone for everything then God will not forgive us anything? or do you think there are times when it’s not wrong to withhold forgiveness?

 

[Church_Militant]

Oh it’s even worse than that my friend.

Remember the Our Father? Look at what we straight up pray.

Our Father, Who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name; Thy kingdom come; Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us; and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. Amen.

And also

James 2:13] For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy; yet mercy triumphs over judgment.

 

[Church_Militant]

Oh yeah…almost forgot this one.
[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 18:21-35[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[spockrates]

Oh it’s even worse than that my friend.

Remember the Our Father? Look at what we straight up pray.

Quote:
Our Father, Who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name; Thy kingdom come; Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us; and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. Amen.

And also

Quote:
James 2:[13] For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy; yet mercy triumphs over judgment.
And also

Thanks, Militant! I find it fascinating that we Christians (especially if we are Catholic) pray these words so often, but often do not consider their meaning. Let’s put our heads together and think about what Christ is saying to us. In the phrase,

“…and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us…”

what would you say are the possible meanings of the word as?

 

[Waiting]

That is the question! Something Jesus said makes me wonder about the answer:

“Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven."

(Luke 6:36-37)

Is He saying that if we don’t forgive everyone for everything then God will not forgive us anything? or do you think there are times when it’s not wrong to withhold forgiveness?

As we depend on God’s mercy to forgive us whatever offenses we commit, so we must forgive others. That doesn’t mean we become a doormat for everyone. Be wise and cautious when dealing with those you can’t trust, but never withhold forgiveness. Too many people say that God can’t forgive them something they’ve done. That thinking is the only really unforgiveable sin.

 

[centurionguard]

Oh yeah…almost forgot this one.
[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 18:21-35[/BIBLEDRB]

A massively huge lesson in life.

35 So also shall my heavenly Father do to you, if you forgive not every one his brother from your hearts.

When one becomes a victim of a horridly, morally laden crime it does not become easy to forgive those who inflicted great harm and stigma upon ourselves or those who are dear to us.

Something I’ve had to learn and do in my life. It does not remove the pain but it does remove the burden of hate against the evil doer who brought great harm.

If we can humbly know our own great sins, we can begin to understand the great human weakness that resides in others.

Like Love, Forgiveness too on our part must be unconditional.

Peace
Chris

 

[spockrates]

As we depend on God’s mercy to forgive us whatever offenses we commit, so we must forgive others. That doesn’t mean we become a doormat for everyone. Be wise and cautious when dealing with those you can’t trust, but never withhold forgiveness. Too many people say that God can’t forgive them something they’ve done. That thinking is the only really unforgiveable sin.

Thanks, waiting! Yes, that is one possible meaning of the word as.

As = in the same way

Other possible meanings:

as
–adverb

1. to the same degree, amount, or extent; similarly; equally: I don’t think it’s as hot and humid today as it was yesterday.
2. for example; for instance: Some flowers, as the rose, require special care.
3. thought to be or considered to be: the square as distinct from the rectangle; the church as separate from the state.
4. in the manner (directed, agreed, promised, etc.): She sang as promised. He left as agreed.

dictionary.reference.com/browse/as

So let’s apply your possible meaning to Jesus’ words:

“…and forgive us our trespasses [in the same way] we forgive those who trespass against us… .”

In this interpretation, Jesus is saying we should imitate God in the way we forgive, but this is not the same as saying that we should forgive in order to be forgiven. True?

 

[brotherjoe]

It is important to remember what forgiveness is. I am not a scholar, but in my experience, forgiveness:

1. does not mean excusing or denying the offence,
2. does not mean burying the hurt,
3. does mean waiving all intention of retaliation
4. does mean seeing the good in the offender
5. does mean praying “Lord Jesus, do not hold this sin against them…” (Acts 7; 60)
6. Does mean that we will still love the person “as much as we are able.”
7. does mean that will will keep in mind that we also are not perfect.

 

[Church_Militant]

Thanks, Militant! I find it fascinating that we Christians (especially if we are Catholic) pray these words so often, but often do not consider their meaning. Let’s put our heads together and think about what Christ is saying to us. In the phrase,

"…and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us…"what would you say are the possible meanings of the word as?

Y’know it’s funny this should come up because Brother Jay (JReducation) and I were just talking about this being a unique part of the Lord’s Prayer a few weeks ago and I’m sure he won’t mind if I include part of his thoughts.

By the way, contrary to popular opinion, the Lord’s Prayer was not an original to Jesus. Jesus’ version is actually a merger of several older Jewish prayers. I refer to his version as the “revised” edition. When you read the English translation, you will notice that it does not quite match our modern version. The two parts that seems to be unique to Jesus are calling God, Father and the part about forgiving as we forgive. There were always prayers asking for forgiveness, but Jesus adds the hook, “as we forgive”. The other parts are actually found all over the scriptures, especially the Psalms.

Observe:

“Who are in heaven” The psalms talk about the earth as the Lord’s footstool.

“Holy is your name” That’s the meaning of Adonai or the Holy One.

“Your kingdom come” David repeats this over and over again

“Your Will be done” Again, we find this in the Torah and in the Psalms

“Gives us this day our daily bread” The prayers of petition and the prayers of blessing at the beginning of Shabbat contain this expression.

“Forgive us our sins” That’s all over the Psalms.

“Deliver us from evil” All over the OT

“Led us not into temptation” The OT calls out to God to deliver us from the hands of the impure.

What Jesus does is to bring together the prayer life of Israel that led from the Patriarch, through David all the way up to him.

The Our Father is not only a prayer, but it also shows the historical continuity of the Spiritual Life of the Israel. Jesus brings together the themes found in the prayers of the Israelites from their conception as a people and cultimates with the great command “love of neighbor with love of self” . . . “forgive us as we forgive.” He turns it around. In doing so, our prayer reflects the great truth that the Covenant has been fulfilled. In Deut 6, we are told to love God and neighbor. In the Lord’s Prayer, we begin with love of God by proclaiming him as Father and we conclude with a commitment to the covenant to forgive and to seek forgiveness. Forgiveness is made possible because through Christ we have been delivered from evil and are able to resist temptation.

It’s a wonderful prayer, not just because Jesus arranged it, but because it preserves our Jewish roots and brings us into the fulfillment of the Covenant.

Not bad for a Franciscan monk, huh? I was unaware of the part we are talking about until he brought up the forgive as we forgive aspect.

To answer your question though, “as” to me means “just as”, which seems to be supported by the other passages that I cited.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

There ARE some “boundaries”.

Keep your car keys in your pocket; don’t cosign loans; and be careful to whom you give your daughter in marriage.

Jesus said of Judas, “it would be better for him if he had never been born”.

I think what they are talking about is not to hold grudges. If someone steals from you, don’t go and hunt the guy down and kill him. [but do make sure he doesn’t go around stealing from others and defrauding little old widow ladies]

If you steal something, you may be forgiven … but you STILL have to make restitution.

And you still may have some temporal punishment … purgatory time … even if you are forgiven and get absolution.

Maybe even jail time, but without anger.

No revenge; retribution, maybe, but done officially.

Forgiveness versus restitution.

With respect to making judgments: there are people whose job it is to judge. In other words, if you are not delegated or assigned or elected or selected to be an official judge and have the paperwork, then you are not permitted to judge others … and being a judge also implies assigning a punishment.

So, if somebody commits a heinous crime against you, once the legal system gets ahold of the issue, then you back away and get on with your life and let the system handle it. You can testify, but not personally stone the criminal.

If a drunk driver kills your child, instead of jail time you might suggest that the killer visit your child’s grave every weekend. Something to constructive change behavior and elicit some remorse. Rather than just locking somebody up and throwing away the key. Rather than revenge. None of this “getting even” business. [don’t get mad, get even … not allowed.]

In MANY cultures, they have vendettas that may last for decades or generations. NONE OF THAT!!

 

[spockrates]

…

Like Love, Forgiveness too on our part must be unconditional.

Peace
Chris

Hey, guard. Are you saying that there are no conditions one must meet to be completely forgiven?

 

[spockrates]

It is important to remember what forgiveness is. I am not a scholar, but in my experience, forgiveness:

1. does not mean excusing or denying the offence,
2. does not mean burying the hurt,
3. does mean waiving all intention of retaliation
4. does mean seeing the good in the offender
5. does mean praying “Lord Jesus, do not hold this sin against them…” (Acts 7; 60)
6. Does mean that we will still love the person “as much as we are able.”
7. does mean that will will keep in mind that we also are not perfect.

Thanks Brother! Yes, I agree that it is important to understand just what forgiveness is. Would you say that forgiveness can mean pardoning a person for her sins and restoring a relationship with that person? Consider someone whose spouse has an affair. Would restoring the relationship with that person mean pardoning her for her sin?

 

[Church_Militant]

There is a difference between being dumb or naive and forgiving.

Jesus plainly tells us, "16] “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves” (Matthew 10)

However, when it comes to forgiveness it gets complicated for us humans.

Jesus also told us, "38] “You have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' **39**] But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; **40**] and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; **41**] and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. **42**] Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you. **43**] "You have heard that it was said, You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’
44] But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45] so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
46] For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
47] And if you salute only your brethren, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?
48] You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect” (Matthew 5)

 

[Church_Militant]

Thanks Brother! Yes, I agree that it is important to understand just what forgiveness is. Would you say that forgiveness can mean pardoning a person for her sins and restoring a relationship with that person? Consider someone whose spouse has an affair. Would restoring the relationship with that person mean pardoning her for her sin?

Yep. especially if one is still married to them.

If they are repentant and contrite then of course the following verse from Sirach 8 comes to mind.
5] Do not reproach a man who is turning away from sin;
remember that we all deserve punishment.

 

[Church_Militant]

That is the question! Something Jesus said makes me wonder about the answer:
“Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven."

(Luke 6:36-37)
Is He saying that if we don’t forgive everyone for everything then God will not forgive us anything? or do you think there are times when it’s not wrong to withhold forgiveness?

Just thought I’d try to put your original verse in context, so…

27] "But I say to you that hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
28] bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you.
29] To him who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also; and from him who takes away your coat do not withhold even your shirt.
30] Give to every one who begs from you; and of him who takes away your goods do not ask them again.
31] And as you wish that men would do to you, do so to them.
32] "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them.
33] And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same.
34] And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35] But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for he is kind to the ungrateful and the selfish.
36] Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.
37] “Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;
38] give, and it will be given to you; good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For the measure you give will be the measure you get back.”

 

[poor_clare]

Hi Spockrates

As we’re human forgiveness can be one of the hardest things to do. Forgiveness is for our sake more than anything else. Like hatred, not forgiving can become a kind of “poison”. It doesn’t affect those whom we can’t forgive. It can create bitterness that festers and makes us miserable.

The way I look at it is that God loves all of us despite our faults and shortcomings. If I truly love God then I must love everyone and everything that He has created. I don’t think that I can pick and choose which bits of His word that I follow.

Just my two cents…

God bless,
Clare

 

[spockrates]

Y’know it’s funny this should come up because Brother Jay (JReducation) and I were just talking about this being a unique part of the Lord’s Prayer a few weeks ago and I’m sure he won’t mind if I include part of his thoughts.Not bad for a Franciscan monk, huh? I was unaware of the part we are talking about until he brought up the forgive as we forgive aspect.

To answer your question though, “as” to me means “just as”, which seems to be supported by the other passages that I cited.

Thanks Militant for sharing that! It’s possible God has brought you to me to help answer my questions. I’ve heard some take a different view, saying that the word as in the prayer Jesus gives us to pray means because. Jesus, they say, meant this:

“…and forgive us our sins [because] we forgive others… .”

In other words, He was teaching us to acknowledge, in prayer, that forgiving others is a condition we must meet before God will forgive us. I take it you would say they are mistaken. Wouldn’t you?

 

[spockrates]

There ARE some “boundaries”.

Keep your car keys in your pocket; don’t cosign loans; and be careful to whom you give your daughter in marriage.

Jesus said of Judas, “it would be better for him if he had never been born”.

I think what they are talking about is not to hold grudges. If someone steals from you, don’t go and hunt the guy down and kill him. [but do make sure he doesn’t go around stealing from others and defrauding little old widow ladies]

If you steal something, you may be forgiven … but you STILL have to make restitution.

And you still may have some temporal punishment … purgatory time … even if you are forgiven and get absolution.

Maybe even jail time, but without anger.

No revenge; retribution, maybe, but done officially.

Forgiveness versus restitution.

With respect to making judgments: there are people whose job it is to judge. In other words, if you are not delegated or assigned or elected or selected to be an official judge and have the paperwork, then you are not permitted to judge others … and being a judge also implies assigning a punishment.

So, if somebody commits a heinous crime against you, once the legal system gets ahold of the issue, then you back away and get on with your life and let the system handle it. You can testify, but not personally stone the criminal.

If a drunk driver kills your child, instead of jail time you might suggest that the killer visit your child’s grave every weekend. Something to constructive change behavior and elicit some remorse. Rather than just locking somebody up and throwing away the key. Rather than revenge. None of this “getting even” business. [don’t get mad, get even … not allowed.]

In MANY cultures, they have vendettas that may last for decades or generations. NONE OF THAT!!

Thanks Monte! So would you say that when Jesus said,

“Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven."

(Luke 6:36:37)

He was not saying it is wrong to judge, but that it is wrong to judge unfairly? and that it is not wrong to condemn, but it is wrong to condemn undeservedly? and that it is not wrong to withhold forgiveness, but it is wrong to withhold forgiveness unjustly?

This seems true, given Matthew’s account of Jesus’ statement:

“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

(Matthew 7:1-2)

That is, do you think Jesus is saying that we should judge, condemn and refuse to forgive the same way that God judges, condemns and refuses to forgive?

 

[spockrates]

Hi Spockrates

As we’re human forgiveness can be one of the hardest things to do. Forgiveness is for our sake more than anything else. Like hatred, not forgiving can become a kind of “poison”. It doesn’t affect those whom we can’t forgive. It can create bitterness that festers and makes us miserable.

The way I look at it is that God loves all of us despite our faults and shortcomings. If I truly love God then I must love everyone and everything that He has created. I don’t think that I can pick and choose which bits of His word that I follow.

Just my two cents…

God bless,
Clare

Thank you, Clare for clearing the air! I must admit that what you say sounds fair, until I think about it. I mean, we should love others as God loves us, and yet, God allows some to not be forgiven, for some end up in Hell. So it seems to me (and perhaps you will be kind enough to explain if you disagree) that if God loves even the unforgiven in Hell, then not forgiving is actually an act of love. Do you think I’m on to something, or do you think I’m full of hot air? (I must admit that to say that not forgiving is loving sounds absurd, but if God truly loves those in Hell, then what other conclusion could we possibly accept?)

 

[Gusbus]

So if someone is a victim of a heinous crime, they should forgive the perpetrator and go visit him/her in prison? And hope for the perp’s good? I think Jennifer Hudson would be a good one to ask.