To forgive, or not to forgive?

[Stylteralmaldo]

Do we need to forgive, even when the offender does not ask for forgiveness and does not think what they did was wrong?

Yes.

salvete:

If we do need to forgive in that situation, do we just tell God that we forgive that person?

We need to forgive that offender with all that we are.

Forgiveness can be a very difficult thing to do because it is more than just telling God that we forgive. It’s living as someone who forgives. I believe living as a forgiving person even though it may be extremely painful is part of our Christian walk of carrying our cross as Christ carry His. Of course we are not God as Christ is God, but He helps us where we are in life. Forgiveness isn’t something that happens normally with a snap of the finger. It’s a process - sometimes a lifetime process.

 

[kbwall]

Do we need to forgive, even when the offender does not ask for forgiveness and does not think what they did was wrong?

Yes, you are to forgive no matter what. It’s not negotiable. You are supposed to forgive unconditionally.

Again, recall Jesus being crucified. The Jews/Romans were not asking for forgiveness, nor did they think what they were doing was wrong to do (with perhaps the exception of Pontius Pilate, who was at least partially aware that this was bad).

Yes, He did pray that the Father would forgive them. Please tell me, what was the reason He gave to forgive them?

Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”

(Luke 23:34)

They didn’t know/believe that Jesus was the Son of God, but they did know that Jesus was a person, and they knew they were torturing/killing/mocking Him. Nobody deserves to be treated like that.

I’m glad you mentioned friendship, because that brings to mind an example. Let’s say a close friend of yours wrongs you in some harmful way. You tell the betrayer you no longer consider her your friend.

Not wanting to lose your friendship, she pleads with you, “I’m so sorry I hurt you; I’ll never do that again. I don’t want to lose your friendship. Please forgive me.”

“I have forgiven you,” you reply. “I’m not holding a grudge; but you’ll never again be a friend of mine!”

Would she have good cause to question the sincerity of your forgiveness?

She would have good reason to question it, but as far as religion goes, I think this is sufficient in terms of forgiveness. You’re asked to forgive and love them, you don’t necessarily have to like or be friends with them. I’ve been down a similar road, with the exception of her pleading to stay friends (in my case, she kinda didn’t care, and left town. Haven’t seen her since).

Though, since she is begging you take her back, I would give it some thought. She’s obviously very sorry for what she did, and wants to still be friends. But this would be your call.

 

[Nelka]

Should I forgive everyone for everything regardless of anything?

Lord Jesus, I come before you, just as I am, I am sorry for my sins, I repent of my sins, please forgive me. In your Name, I forgive all others for what they have done against me. I renounce Satan, the evil spirits and all their works. I give you my entire self, Lord Jesus, now and forever. I invite you into my life, Jesus. I accept you as my Lord, God and Saviour. Heal me, change me, strengthen me in body, soul, and spirit.

Come Lord Jesus, cover me with your Precious Blood, and fill me with your Holy Spirit. I love you Lord Jesus. I praise you Jesus. I thank you Jesus. I shall follow you every day of my life. Amen.

Blessed virgin Mary help me. Amen.

…forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us…

 

[jesuspsr]

I forgive. it’s so rewarding, freedom, unchained. In my younger years I was associated with a certian group of people, let’s say, undesirable. I was kidnap and left for dead. As I was going through this ordeal, I thought I was going to be killed. So I forgave them while going through this It gave me so much peace and comfort. Strange huh. Well that was over 30 years ago. Forgiving and praying for the people that mean to do me harm bodliy or verbal, for me is just the right thing to do. Sometimes it’s hard, so I pray more. When I lay my head to sleep at night I want to sleep with a clean conscience, and wake up with a clean one. well I’m rambling now so have a nice day.

God bless
jesus g

 

[spockrates]

@Chris- I think we can only forgive wrongs done to us. We have to forgive all wrongs done to us.

@Spockrates- What does forgiveness mean to me- it means not a lack of anger but maybe a presence of love in spite of injury

I go to St Francis’s definition of True Love from the 9th Admonition:

Quote:
9. Of Love.

The Lord says in the Gospel, “Love your enemies,” etc. 3 He truly loves his enemy who does not grieve because of the wrong done to himself, but who is afflicted for love of God because of the sin on his [brother’s] soul and who shows his love by his works.

Joan:

Thanks for the reply. I’m assuming you are saying that forgiveness is love, and so the command to love one’s enemies would also carry the meaning to forgive one’s enemies. Am I following your meaning correctly?

If so, then please tell me: What works show the forgiven that you have forgiven? For example, if one does not hold a grudge, but still holds the sin against the person who sinned, is this really forgiveness?

Please consider this example: Let’s say a friend of mine betrays me, doing great harm to me. I tell her that I no longer consider her to be my friend. She then regrets her sin and pleads with me to forgive her and not give up on our friendship.

I say, “I have forgiven you. I’m not holding a grudge against you, but I’ll never be friends with you again!” Do you think she would be justified in saying that my forgiveness is in word, but not in works? Would she be right to say that, even though I’m not holding a grudge, I am still holding her sin against her, and so my forgiveness is insincere?

 

[joanofarc2008]

Joan:

Thanks for the reply. I’m assuming you are saying that forgiveness is love, and so the command to love one’s enemies would also carry the meaning to forgive one’s enemies. Am I following your meaning correctly?

If so, then please tell me: What works show the forgiven that you have forgiven? For example, if one does not hold a grudge, but still holds the sin against the person who sinned, is this really forgiveness?

Please consider this example: Let’s say a friend of mine betrays me, doing great harm to me. I tell her that I no longer consider her to be my friend. She then regrets her sin and pleads with me to forgive her and not give up on our friendship.

I say, “I have forgiven you. I’m not holding a grudge against you, but I’ll never be friends with you again!” Do you think she would be justified in saying that my forgiveness is in word, but not in works? Would she be right to say that, even though I’m not holding a grudge, I am still holding her sin against her, and so my forgiveness is insincere?

Forgiving someone does not necessarily mean continuing a friendship. Sometimes this is not wise. IMO Forgiveness is sometimes not a checklist it is not saying I forgive you but simply a letting go of anger and an acceptance of love.

 

[TheDoctor]

Since we should do our best to imitate God, I suppose it would be best to consider how He forgives, that we might imitate Him. Please let me ask you this, Doc: Does God forgive everyone,

Yes, if they are truly sorry and repentant. Their is no limit to God’s forgiveness however He will not force that forgiveness upon us.

or are there some He judges, instead of pardoning or overlooking their sins?

God judges everyone. He “pardons” in the sense that we can receive absolution and restore our bond with Him. He does not “overlook” in the sense that He forgets sins.

To put it in terms of the Sacrament of Reconciliation, we are absolved (God forgives us our sins) but we still owe the temporal punishment due to our sins (God does not overlook our sins but holds us accountable for the consequences).

Is that what you were asking?

 

[RosaryFan]

That is the question! Should I forgive everyone for everything regardless of anything? or are there times when the right thing is to withhold forgiveness, at least until the person meets some condition to be forgiven?

When Christ told his disciples to forgive his brother not seven times, but seventy times seven times (or something like that), he did not put any conditions on it. We are told to forgive as many times as we are offended. Someone else on this thread wisely stated that it is an act of the will, not a feeling, so we are obliged to forgive in every instance, regardless of how we feel about it.

This is how I perceive it - when someone offends me, I may harbor bad feelings toward them and even try to steer clear of them in the future for my own sake, but I don’t want them to suffer eternal fire because of their offenses against me, because in my human frailty, I too have caused great pains toward others (for which I am now sorry) and would not want those people to wish me into enteral damnation.

 

[Rascalking]

When Christ told his disciples to forgive his brother not seven times, but seventy times seven times (or something like that), he did not put any conditions on it. We are told to forgive as many times as we are offended. Someone else on this thread wisely stated that it is an act of the will, not a feeling, so we are obliged to forgive in every instance, regardless of how we feel about it.

This is how I perceive it - when someone offends me, I may harbor bad feelings toward them and even try to steer clear of them in the future for my own sake, but I don’t want them to suffer eternal fire because of their offenses against me, because in my human frailty, I too have caused great pains toward others (for which I am now sorry) and would not want those people to wish me into enteral damnation.

This is pretty much how I feel. Great post RosaryFan.

Too many people think that “Christian = wimp you can walk all over because they have to forgive everyone” That’s not the case. I’m a Christian,and I forgive those who wronged me. However, that doesn’t mean that I’m going to let myself get in that situation again and again.

Example-My accountant steals money from me. I forgive her, but she will never be allowed in the situation where you can steal money from me again. I will work with authorities to make darn sure she can’t do it to anyone else.

More personal-my ex girlfriend cheated on me. I forgive her, but we break up. I than tell her new boyfriend, “Hey, watch it man-she might do the same to you”. I forgive her, but I’m not going to let someone else be hurt by her actions.

Christian doesn’t mean “Stupid” and it sure as heck doesn’t mean “wimp”

 

[spockrates]

I forgive because for me is better to forgive. When I forgive I can go forward. I am not angry then.

Yes, MM, I can see how ceasing to stew is good for me!



But is that all that forgiving is? Doesn’t one who forgives also cease to hold the sin against the sinner?

 

[spockrates]

Do we need to forgive, even when the offender does not ask for forgiveness and does not think what they did was wrong? If we do need to forgive in that situation, do we just tell God that we forgive that person?

Great questions, Salvete!



I think Jesus has a good answer:

"So watch yourselves. If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”

(Luke 17:3-4)

It seems to me that *if *a person knows she is doing wrong, and *if *she repents of that wrong, then I *must *forgive. Seems to me that the inference is that if a person knows she is doing wrong, and if she *refuses *to repent, then I do *not *have to forgive.

How does it seem to you?

 

[ClamDigger]

That is the question! Should I forgive everyone for everything regardless of anything? or are there times when the right thing is to withhold forgiveness, at least until the person meets some condition to be forgiven?

Can you give me an example of a situation in which it would be a Christian act to withhold forgiveness? I really can’t think of one.

 

[spockrates]

Yes.

We need to forgive that offender with all that we are.

Forgiveness can be a very difficult thing to do because it is more than just telling God that we forgive. It’s living as someone who forgives. I believe living as a forgiving person even though it may be extremely painful is part of our Christian walk of carrying our cross as Christ carry His. Of course we are not God as Christ is God, but He helps us where we are in life. Forgiveness isn’t something that happens normally with a snap of the finger. It’s a process - sometimes a lifetime process.

Hi, Stylter. Please explain what about forgiving is painful. Are you speaking of the pain of not dwelling on the anger, or the pain of not getting even, or the pain of treating the person as though she never sinned, or some other pain?

 

[spockrates]

Yes, you are to forgive no matter what. It’s not negotiable. You are supposed to forgive unconditionally.

Again, recall Jesus being crucified. The Jews/Romans were not asking for forgiveness, nor did they think what they were doing was wrong to do (with perhaps the exception of Pontius Pilate, who was at least partially aware that this was bad).

Thanks for the reply, KBW. There is something I don’t quite understand. You say that we are to forgive unconditionally, which I take to mean that the people we forgive do not have to meet any conditions whatsoever in order to be forgiven. However Jesus (as you said) indicates that the Roman soldiers who tortured and killed Him did not know what they were doing was wrong. So doesn’t this mean that they did meet a condition to be forgiven? Didn’t they meet the condition of being ignorant of their sins?

Please consider what Jesus said to the ones who were later responsible for arresting Him and handing Him over to Pilot to be crucified:

Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains."

(John 9:41)

Being blind to one’s sin removes culpability for the guilt of the sin, and so such ignorance meets a condition to be forgiven, and forgiveness (at least in this case) is conditional. Don’t you see?

 

[spockrates]

Can you give me an example of a situation in which it would be a Christian act to withhold forgiveness? I really can’t think of one.

Yes, Digger.



I’ll give you a real one. I had a heart-to-heart talk with a former boss of mine. She said she had been sexually molested as a child by her uncle, but she never told anyone. She said that now she is finding it hard to forgive him, because when she goes to family reunions, he is there. She said she is a mother, and she especially has trouble allowing him to spend time alone with her two young children, and she does not think he ever admitted that what he did was wrong or changed his ways.

When I asked why she does not report his crime to the police, she said it was because she had to forgive him for his sins so that God would forgive her, and having him arrested and punished for his crime was not forgiveness.

I agreed with her that judging a person for his sin was the opposite of forgiveness, but I told her that I thought not forgiving was justified in this case. “Love always protects,” I told her that the Bible says in 1 Corinthians 13. Rather than love the molester by not holding his sin against him, you should love your kids by protecting them.

 

[ClamDigger]

Yes, Digger.



I’ll give you a real one. I had a heart-to-heart talk with a former boss of mine. She said she had been sexually molested as a child by her uncle, but she never told anyone. She said that now she is finding it hard to forgive him, because when she goes to family reunions, he is there. She said she is a mother, and she especially has trouble allowing him to spend time alone with her two young children, and she does not think he ever admitted that what he did was wrong or changed his ways.

When I asked why she does not report his crime to the police, she said it was because she had to forgive him for his sins so that God would forgive her, and having him arrested and punished for his crime was not forgiveness.

I agreed with her that judging a person for his sin was the opposite of forgiveness, but I told her that I thought not forgiving was justified in this case. “Love always protects,” I told her that the Bible says in 1 Corinthians 13. Rather than love the molester by not holding his sin against him, you should love your kids by protecting them.

She can forgive him (not hate him for what he did to her) and still help society by calling the police. It’s not being unforgiving to protect society. She especially should not allow him to ever spend any time with any child, let alone her own, as she should be as wise as a serpent, but as innocent as a dove (Matthew 10.16).

 

[spockrates]

… She would have good reason to question it, but as far as religion goes, I think this is sufficient in terms of forgiveness. You’re asked to forgive and love them, you don’t necessarily have to like or be friends with them. I’ve been down a similar road, with the exception of her pleading to stay friends (in my case, she kinda didn’t care, and left town. Haven’t seen her since).

Though, since she is begging you take her back, I would give it some thought. She’s obviously very sorry for what she did, and wants to still be friends. But this would be your call.

I hear what you are saying, KBW. Still I wonder whether forgiving in such a limited way is all that God wants us to do. So for the sake of discussion, I think it might be helpful to consider the definitions of forgiveness together.

for·give
[fer-giv] verb, -gave, -giv·en, -giv·ing.

–verb (used with object)

1. to grant pardon for or remission of (an offense, debt, etc.); absolve.
2. to give up all claim on account of; remit (a debt, obligation, etc.).
3. to grant pardon to (a person).
4. to cease to feel resentment against: to forgive one’s enemies.
5. to cancel an indebtedness or liability of: to forgive the interest owed on a loan.

It seems to me that you are speaking of forgiving only in the sense of definition (4), but doesn’t God want us to also forgive the way He forgives by forgiving in the sense of definitions (1), (2), (3)? Isn’t absolving a person of the wrong done to you the same as forgiving her? Isn’t forgiving a debt she owes you the same as forgiving her? Isn’t pardoning her for the wrong she committed against you the same as forgiving her? Isn’t not holding her sin against her a more complete and loving and perfect way to forgive than merely not holding a grudge?

 

[spockrates]

She can forgive him (not hate him for what he did to her) and still help society by calling the police. It’s not being unforgiving to protect society. She especially should not allow him to ever spend any time with any child, let alone her own, as she should be as wise as a serpent, but as innocent as a dove (Matthew 10.16).

Yes, it’s not unforgiving in one sense, but it is unforgiving in other senses. Consider the definitions of the word forgive:

for·give
[fer-giv] verb, -gave, -giv·en, -giv·ing.

–verb (used with object)

1. to grant pardon for or remission of (an offense, debt, etc.); absolve.
2. to give up all claim on account of; remit (a debt, obligation, etc.).
3. to grant pardon to (a person).
4. to cease to feel resentment against: to forgive one’s enemies.
5. to cancel an indebtedness or liability of: to forgive the interest owed on a loan.

It is not unforgiving in the sense of definition (4), but it is unforgiving in the sense of definitions (1), (2) and (3). Don’t you agree?

 

[ClamDigger]

Yes, it’s not unforgiving in one sense, but it is unforgiving in other senses. Consider the definitions of the word forgive:

for·give
[fer-giv] verb, -gave, -giv·en, -giv·ing.

–verb (used with object)

1. to grant pardon for or remission of (an offense, debt, etc.); absolve.
2. to give up all claim on account of; remit (a debt, obligation, etc.).
3. to grant pardon to (a person).
4. to cease to feel resentment against: to forgive one’s enemies.
5. to cancel an indebtedness or liability of: to forgive the interest owed on a loan.

It is not unforgiving in the sense of definition (4), but it is unforgiving in the sense of definitions (1), (2) and (3). Don’t you agree?

I suppose, but it’s still forgiving in light of definition four. I think Our Lord’s injunction to forgive others was meant to teach us not to hate others and to love them no matter what (which falls under number four), not to completely absolve people who wrong us and who we know will wrong others in the future (as, in your example, a pedophile would). Sometimes the most loving thing we can do for a person is to have them detained for both their own good and everyone else’s.

 

[spockrates]

Lord Jesus, I come before you, just as I am, I am sorry for my sins, I repent of my sins, please forgive me. In your Name, I forgive all others for what they have done against me. I renounce Satan, the evil spirits and all their works. I give you my entire self, Lord Jesus, now and forever. I invite you into my life, Jesus. I accept you as my Lord, God and Saviour. Heal me, change me, strengthen me in body, soul, and spirit.

Come Lord Jesus, cover me with your Precious Blood, and fill me with your Holy Spirit. I love you Lord Jesus. I praise you Jesus. I thank you Jesus. I shall follow you every day of my life. Amen.

Blessed virgin Mary help me. Amen.

…forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us…

Amen, Nelka! Amen.



Please tell me. Should we do our best to forgive those who trespass against us the way God forgives our trespasses against Him? Should we forgive others the way God forgives us?