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jesuspsr
Guest
One can forgive, and still call the police for what he has done. Thats common law. We need to protect other children from this man.
God bless
jesus g
God bless
jesus g
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spockrates
Guest
Thanks for sharing that testimony, JPSR. I’ve had my share of sleepless nights, and suppose that praying more would help me get a better night’s rest more!I forgive. it’s so rewarding, freedom, unchained. In my younger years I was associated with a certian group of people, let’s say, undesirable. I was kidnap and left for dead. As I was going through this ordeal, I thought I was going to be killed. So I forgave them while going through this It gave me so much peace and comfort. Strange huh. Well that was over 30 years ago. Forgiving and praying for the people that mean to do me harm bodliy or verbal, for me is just the right thing to do. Sometimes it’s hard, so I pray more. When I lay my head to sleep at night I want to sleep with a clean conscience, and wake up with a clean one. well I’m rambling now so have a nice day.
God bless
jesus g
For some strange reason, I have found that just recalling these words of Sacred Scripture has a calming effect on me:
Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
(Philippians 6:6-7)
I’m curious about something. Is forgiving for you, or is it for the ones you forgive? I suppose what I’m asking is that when you forgive, is it an internal thing only (changing your own emotions and attitude) or is it an external thing as well (changing the way you treat others)? If it is external, in what way does your treatment of others change? How do your actions show you are forgiving the forgiven one?
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spockrates
Guest
Yes, Joan, I think I’m beginning to understand what you believe, but not sure yet why you believe. Perhaps considering the common definitions of the word *forgive *will help:
for·give
[fer-giv] verb, -gave, -giv·en, -giv·ing.
–verb (used with object)
- to grant pardon for or remission of (an offense, debt, etc.); absolve.
- to give up all claim on account of; remit (a debt, obligation, etc.).
- to grant pardon to (a person).
- to cease to feel resentment against: to forgive one’s enemies.
- to cancel an indebtedness or liability of: to forgive the interest owed on a loan.
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Stylteralmaldo
Guest
Anger:
Justified anger is when someone has been wronged unjustly and is in pain due to others as a result. Jesus is the prime example of justified anger. Jesus overthrew the marketplace in Jerusalem. I believe this action by Jesus helped get him crucified, yet Jesus asked the Father to forgive them when He was on the Cross. That’s very powerful stuff.
Unjustified anger is when someone is in pain due to their own actions. The two criminals who were crucified with Jesus are good examples of this. I believe one of the Gospels refer to them as ‘revolutionaries’. They may have been fighting for a just cause (freedom) using unjustified means (one of the criminals admits they deserve to be on the cross). One criminal was angry and demanded Jesus save himself as well as him. The other admitted he deserved his painful state, but asked Jesus to remember him…a powerful example of asking for forgiveness.
Getting Even:
Is it justifiable to ‘get even’? It seems the Old Testament allows an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. In theory, it makes sense, but will justice be done if we get even? Jesus teaches us to turn the other cheek. When we are in pain and want justice to be served, we want to get even - perhaps in a well-intentioned way - but the reality of our fallen nature is that we hold onto the pain and instead of seeking justice, we seek revenge. Revenge is sinful and damaging to our souls.
Treating an offender as if the offender didn’t sin:
I ponder this statement and ask myself if Jesus did such a thing or if His disciples did something similar. In Gethsemane, the disciples treated Judas as if he didn’t sin. They did not defend Jesus at his greatest need and watched the soldiers arrest Him. Peter was the boldest (at first) by striking with his sword and cutting off one of the soldiers ears. Jesus responded by telling Peter not to use the sword. Worse yet, all the disciples ran away in the face of this injustice. Then later, Peter denied Jesus so he wouldn’t be subject to the cruel pain that was being inflicted on Jesus.
Other pain:
Pain can be defined in many ways. It can be physical, emotional, psychological, spiritual, etc. I believe these pains we experience are a combination of justifiable intertwined with unjustifiable expressions. Discerning what is justified and unjustified is part of our human experience and we all need the guidance of the Holy Spirit in that regard.
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spockrates
Guest
Yes, Doc, I think that was the answer for which I was looking! At least, that’s what I’m wondering about.
So then, would you say that since there are times when God requires repentance in order to forgive wrongs done to Him, do you think there are also times when you or I should require repentance in order to forgive wrongs done to us? I’m thinking that this is one thing Jesus is trying to convey with these words:
"So watch yourselves. If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”
(Luke 17:3-4)
The other thing is that no matter how many times a person commits the same sin, if he genuinely repents, we are required to forgive him. The trick, I guess, is figuring out when the repentance is sincere. That’s what I’m thinking. What are you thinking?
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Peepers
Guest
The other side of that coin is that holding a grudge is like drinking poison while waiting for the other person to die. Failure to forgive, when it is possible to do so, is internally corrosive, in my opinion. Forgiving someone does not mean giving them license to harm you again.That is the question! Should I forgive everyone for everything regardless of anything? or are there times when the right thing is to withhold forgiveness, at least until the person meets some condition to be forgiven?
There is a great book on the topic called “The Sunflower” by Simon Wiesenthal, the famous “Nazi hunter”. It is a short book. The first half recounts some of his experiences as a Jewish prisoner in a Nazi concentration camp. At one point, he is put on a work detail which brings him into contact with a young German officer who is dying. The officer has committed a terrible atrocity in Poland, for which he seeks the forgiveness of a Jew. He asked Wiesenthal for the forgiveness which he seeks.
Wiesenthal describes his own reaction, and then asks the question: What should he have done? The second half of the book is a series of short responses ranging from Catholic theologians, Jewish theologians, the Dalai Lama, writers and poets, politicians, etc… It is a very interesting work on the topic of forgiveness.
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spockrates
Guest
He did not say there were not any conditions, either. Did He?
Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?”
Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times."
(Matthew 18:21-22)
But if forgiveness is not feeling bad feelings, then isn’t the inference that it *is *feeling good feelings? Thus, forgiveness must be an emotion, however it might not be *only *that.
Please tell me, Fan. If good feelings are not all that forgiveness is, then what else is it? Besides feeling warm fuzzy emotions toward the one forgiven, what acts of the will show a person you have really forgiven her? What do you DO to show someone you forgive her?
Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.
(1 John 3:18)
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spockrates
Guest
This is pretty much how I feel:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7802330&postcount=47
If forgiveness is not only an emotion, but also action, then what act shows you have really forgiven someone? Please name one, little Rascal!
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spockrates
Guest
Let’s consider the immediate context of Matthew 10:16.
11 “Whatever town or village you enter, search for some worthy person there and stay at his house until you leave. 12 As you enter the home, give it your greeting. 13 If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. 15 I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town. 16 I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.
(Matthew 10)
Please tell me, Digger, do the words, “I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town,” speak of forgiveness or of the opposite? Isn’t judging people for their sins the opposite of completely forgiving them for their sins?
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spockrates
Guest
Yes, I agree. We should all forgive in the sense of definition (4), but I’m wondering if that is all that God wants from us. I mean, think about the Lord’s prayer that He gave us, and that Catholics know perhaps better than most Christians:
“Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.”
The words remind me of something else Jesus said:
“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.’
(John 13:34)
Maybe I’m wrong, but what He seems to be saying to me is that I should love you, and others, the same way He loves me. I should forgive you, and others, the same way He forgives me. Or at least I should get as close as possible to loving and forgiving the way He loves and forgives me. Don’t you agree, or am I not seeing something?
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Peepers
Guest
I see “forgiveness” as a healing process. For me, it means looking within to understand why I have been hurt. How much of the responsibility is my own, and how much is the other person’s. Often, if I am in judgment of another, then I must first understand my own shortcomings. Typically, when I am finding fault with others, there is some fault of my own. Once I am clear on my own place in the matter, then I am more likely to have compassion and empathy for the other person. At that point, then I am more likely to have healed the pain, and forgiveness is possible. At its best, the process is one of personal growth for me, and for the relationship with the other person. However, forgiveness does not necessarily mean having a continuing relationship with another person. It can mean restricting a relationship, or ending it.He did not say there were not any conditions, either. Did He?
Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?”
Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times."
(Matthew 18:21-22)
But if forgiveness is not feeling bad feelings, then isn’t the inference that it *is *feeling good feelings? Thus, forgiveness must be an emotion, however it might not be *only *that.
Please tell me, Fan. If good feelings are not all that forgiveness is, then what else is it? Besides feeling warm fuzzy emotions toward the one forgiven, what acts of the will show a person you have really forgiven her? What do you DO to show someone you forgive her?
Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.
(1 John 3:18)
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joanofarc2008
Guest
Actually it has been also been said that this verse on much more careful contextual reading is not about “outing” people for their sins but about excommunication and removing those unworthy of the Sacrament of Eucharist from the Communion Rail. Try rereading with that understanding.Great questions, Salvete!
I think Jesus has a good answer:
"So watch yourselves. If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”
(Luke 17:3-4)
It seems to me that *if *a person knows she is doing wrong, and *if *she repents of that wrong, then I *must *forgive. Seems to me that the inference is that if a person knows she is doing wrong, and if she *refuses *to repent, then I do *not *have to forgive.
How does it seem to you?
E
Eric_Hyom
Guest
**It seems that forgiveness is searching for ways to heal yourself, even after the torture and death of your child, there are many stories of forgiveness on this site, click on any of the photos **
http://www.theforgivenessproject.com/stories/francis-berthe-climbie
Francis & Berthe Climbié
**Victoria Climbié’s life was short and tragic. Born in the Ivory coast, at the age of seven her parents, Francis and Berthe Climbié , trusted her into the care of a relative, Marie-Therese Kouao, who brought her to England to be educated. It was here that she met her death – tortured and killed by the very person who had promised to help her. **
Initially, when we first heard about Victoria we could not forgive. We are human beings and no human being is perfect. We were tormented by guilt, anguish and hatred, and could not understand how our daughter’s life could have been destroyed by someone who had promised to take care of her. Victoria was very, very precious to us. We had so many expectations and so much hope for our child. Even so, from the very first day we heard about the death of Victoria, we began praying that one day we would be able to forgive.
If you want to live happily and at ease in this life you have to learn to forgive. It shouldn’t matter if the person is unable to ask for forgiveness or even acknowledge that they’ve done wrong, because forgiveness cannot be based on conditions. So we’re not waiting for Marie-Therese to ask for our forgiveness: whether she asks for it or not we have forgiven her. But while Marie-Therese has shown no remorse, her boyfriend, Carl Manning, did ask for our forgiveness. The sad thing is he hasn’t achieved freedom – not in his body, his mind or his soul. We can’t ignore their culpability. Whatever wrong people do in life there will be a price to pay, but it is not for us to punish. The legal system has its way of dealing with people who are not fit to live among humans.
We have also been able to forgive all those agencies and individuals who were shown through the public inquiry to have failed our daughter. To be locked into a fixed attitude of retribution is to kill a child twice. First, the child is murdered, but if you as the parent then focus only on retribution, you extinguish the very spirit and memory of your child.
Many people in England have asked us why we gave Victoria away. I want to say that we didn’t give her away. In African society children are not just the children of their parents, but the children of their aunts and uncles, grandmothers and grandfathers, brothers and sisters. The greatest privilege of all is for a relative to offer to educate your child abroad. In Africa we are only able to survive because those who are successful feel a duty to help those who are not.
What comfort is revenge? Our greatest desire is that something positive should come out of this tragedy. That’s why we’re opening a school in the Ivory Coast. It will be a centre of excellence providing education for children from all around the world. The sole reason for Victoria coming to England was to get an education. This school is our way of immortalising the spirit and the name of our child.
Blessings
Eric
http://www.theforgivenessproject.com/stories/francis-berthe-climbie
Francis & Berthe Climbié
**Victoria Climbié’s life was short and tragic. Born in the Ivory coast, at the age of seven her parents, Francis and Berthe Climbié , trusted her into the care of a relative, Marie-Therese Kouao, who brought her to England to be educated. It was here that she met her death – tortured and killed by the very person who had promised to help her. **
Initially, when we first heard about Victoria we could not forgive. We are human beings and no human being is perfect. We were tormented by guilt, anguish and hatred, and could not understand how our daughter’s life could have been destroyed by someone who had promised to take care of her. Victoria was very, very precious to us. We had so many expectations and so much hope for our child. Even so, from the very first day we heard about the death of Victoria, we began praying that one day we would be able to forgive.
If you want to live happily and at ease in this life you have to learn to forgive. It shouldn’t matter if the person is unable to ask for forgiveness or even acknowledge that they’ve done wrong, because forgiveness cannot be based on conditions. So we’re not waiting for Marie-Therese to ask for our forgiveness: whether she asks for it or not we have forgiven her. But while Marie-Therese has shown no remorse, her boyfriend, Carl Manning, did ask for our forgiveness. The sad thing is he hasn’t achieved freedom – not in his body, his mind or his soul. We can’t ignore their culpability. Whatever wrong people do in life there will be a price to pay, but it is not for us to punish. The legal system has its way of dealing with people who are not fit to live among humans.
We have also been able to forgive all those agencies and individuals who were shown through the public inquiry to have failed our daughter. To be locked into a fixed attitude of retribution is to kill a child twice. First, the child is murdered, but if you as the parent then focus only on retribution, you extinguish the very spirit and memory of your child.
Many people in England have asked us why we gave Victoria away. I want to say that we didn’t give her away. In African society children are not just the children of their parents, but the children of their aunts and uncles, grandmothers and grandfathers, brothers and sisters. The greatest privilege of all is for a relative to offer to educate your child abroad. In Africa we are only able to survive because those who are successful feel a duty to help those who are not.
What comfort is revenge? Our greatest desire is that something positive should come out of this tragedy. That’s why we’re opening a school in the Ivory Coast. It will be a centre of excellence providing education for children from all around the world. The sole reason for Victoria coming to England was to get an education. This school is our way of immortalising the spirit and the name of our child.
Blessings
Eric
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spockrates
Guest
Thanks, Stylter. Yes, that makes sense to me. Speaking of Peter, I’ve sometimes wondered what would have happened if he had stayed with Christ after he dropped his sword instead of running away as a coward. If he had stayed, I think that he might have been crucified with Christ. Instead of his being our first pope, he’d be our first martyr, and Jesus would have said to him (rather than to the stranger on the cross next to him), "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise. The first pope, then might have been James; not Peter. I suppose if there are such things as alternate universes, as Einstein theorized, then this might be the reality for some of those.
Regarding what actually happened to Peter, we know that he felt real regret for his sin of cowardice, and we know that Jesus forgave him. Do you think that his repenting and confessing his sin was necessary for Jesus to forgive him? Comparing Peter to Judas, do you think that Judas, if he did not repent and confess his sin, might not be forgiven?
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joanofarc2008
Guest
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RosaryFan
Guest
In most cases, you would never know whether or not someone feels repentence for having offended you. What about the “creep” who cuts you off in traffic? They aren’t going to stop at the next red light, wait for you to pull up next to them, and then roll down their window to apologize. That would be nice, but chances are…Great questions, Salvete!
I think Jesus has a good answer:
"So watch yourselves. If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”
(Luke 17:3-4)
It seems to me that *if *a person knows she is doing wrong, and *if *she repents of that wrong, then I *must *forgive. Seems to me that the inference is that if a person knows she is doing wrong, and if she *refuses *to repent, then I do *not *have to forgive.
How does it seem to you?
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spockrates
Guest
Geepers, creapers, Peepers, wish I had your eyes to read that book! Tell me, please: What did some of the theologians say he should do?
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joanofarc2008
Guest
It would be a nice world - with a lot of traffic jams - especially in Miami - but in all seriousness can you imagine if we held on to every grudge??
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RosaryFan
Guest
I know! It would probably kill us! Hatred takes a lot out of a person.
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spockrates
Guest
Yes, I see what you mean, Peepers. Let me ask you this: Suppose that a person wronged you in such a serious way that you were considering ending your relationship with that person. What would the person have to do in order for you to forgive in such a way that you did continue your relationship with that person? What would she have to do to keep your friendship?
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