To forgive, or not to forgive?

[RosaryFan]

Yes, Fan, I believe you can forgive first and confront later. But let’s say she tells you to go suck an egg and refuses to change her driving habits. After Mass she recklessly speeds out of the church parking lot and runs over a small child, killing her. The child is a relative of yours–the daughter of your sibling.

Do you forgive her, then? or would you need to confronting her, again before you would consider forgiving her? Is there anything that she would have to do before you would forgive her, or would you continue to forgive her after her showing no desire to change her attitude and behavior?

Me, personally… I find it hard sometimes to forgive when the offense is THAT drastic. But Jesus would forgive and has commanded us to do the same. I didn’t say it was easy, or that I would even do it, necessarily, but that is what Jesus has commanded us to do (seven times seventy times, or something like that). Being Catholic is more difficult than being a rocket scientist. Sometimes, being Catholic feels like we’re going against nature, even though we’re not. It’s that hard.

Lastly, in the scenario you’ve presented, I would have to assume the lady (or man ) is a total nut job with severe mental problems! That can be easier to forgive than someone who is just plain ol’ mean.

 

[spockrates]

Thanks for the reply, and please forgive me for taking so long to reply in turn (family and work kept me away).

Well, I’ll try to give you an answer, but only you can be the one who determines whether it is what you are longing to hear.

The short answer: No.

As I said earlier, forgiveness is a process. If someone wrongs me in a significant manner, it could be very difficult for me to forgive that person regardless if the person repents or not. I may question the sincerity of the repentence for example, or perhaps I recognize that the repentence is sincere but because of my personal hurt I withhold the forgiveness because I am not ready for the party who harmed me to heal because (selfishly perhaps) I am not ready to heal myself.

Then why would my short answer be no? When Jesus died on the cross, he offered his forgiveness to us freely. That means that we are forgiven no matter what we do. Jesus does not technically require us to repent in order to have access to salvation. However, repentence is for our own sake. It opens the doors to Christ’s saving Grace and without it we can not be saved no matter how freely it is offered to us. I’ve heard hell described as a place where the doors are locked from the inside - not the outside. I agree with this analogy. Jesus wants desparately to show that he has forgiven us despite the many times we have failed Him miserably.

Yes, but what a strange contradiction it is in which we find ourselves!



Jesus freely forgave from the cross those who did not repent of the mortal sin of murdering Him. But we also agree that this forgiveness likely did not extend to Judas for his part in the mortal sin of murdering Him–nor to others who knowingly commit mortal sins, and who are aware of the consequences of committing them, and who never repent of them. Hence not all of the repentant are forgiven by Jesus.

Next question, the answer to which will help me personally in understanding the extent to which I should forgive: Should you or I forgive Judas for his most grievous sin, and others who commit mortal sins such as murdering those we love without ever considering repenting of their grave wrongs? If we should unconditionally forgive them, then would you say it is better to forgive (rather than not forgive) even those who Jesus does not forgive?

 

[spockrates]

Fan:

Thanks for the reply, and please forgive me for taking so long to respond–family and work kept me away.

Me, personally… I find it hard sometimes to forgive when the offense is THAT drastic. But Jesus would forgive and has commanded us to do the same. I didn’t say it was easy, or that I would even do it, necessarily, but that is what Jesus has commanded us to do (seven times seventy times, or something like that). Being Catholic is more difficult than being a rocket scientist. Sometimes, being Catholic feels like we’re going against nature, even though we’re not. It’s that hard.

Lastly, in the scenario you’ve presented, I would have to assume the lady (or man ) is a total nut job with severe mental problems! That can be easier to forgive than someone who is just plain ol’ mean.

Let’s say that the person was not a nut job, but just recklessly irresponsible. Let’s say that you later learn that her sin was not only reckless, but also intentional! The person had intentionally done this before. She is arrested for the crime, and for the crime of intentionally running down other children. She pleads guilty to murder in the first degree, and is sentenced to death my lethal injection.

Your parish priest goes to the prison to give her last rites. She spits in his face and says she will not confess her sins, and will not repent of them, and is glad that she killed the children and would gladly do it again.



After the execution you have a conversation with the priest who tells you that he fears she is hell bound, for she refused to repent of this horrific mortal sin.

My next question, which is of personal importance to me: If it is likely that Jesus will not forgive such an extreme case of mortal sin, then should we? If we should forgive the unrepentant and gravely serious sin, then would you say it is better to forgive (rather than not forgive) those who Jesus Himself does not forgive?

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Hello spockrates;

Let’s say that the person was not a nut job, but just recklessly irresponsible. Let’s say that you later learn that her sin was not only reckless, but also intentional! The person had intentionally done this before. She is arrested for the crime, and for the crime of intentionally running down other children. She pleads guilty to murder in the first degree, and is sentenced to death my lethal injection.

Your parish priest goes to the prison to give her last rites. She spits in his face and says she will not confess her sins, and will not repent of them, and is glad that she killed the children and would gladly do it again.



After the execution you have a conversation with the priest who tells you that he fears she is hell bound, for she refused to repent of this horrific mortal sin.

My next question, which is of personal importance to me: If it is likely that Jesus will not forgive such an extreme case of mortal sin, then should we? If we should forgive the unrepentant and gravely serious sin, then would you say it is better to forgive (rather than not forgive) those who Jesus Himself does not forgive?

Even in the circumstances you describe I would say it is better to forgive that lady even if she does not repent. You cannot know how Jesus would judge her, he may well find grounds to be merciful and forgive her, if Jesus then forgave her and you did not, where does that leave your judgement?

If you cannot forgive then your anger will burn away inside you, you will have sleepless nights thinking about injustice. That person will control your thoughts and your mind, and worse still you have given that person permission to control your mind.

To forgive someone is not for their benefit, it is more for your own benefit, you cannot bring the children back to life, so you need to find ways to live with this great burden that has been placed on you, the death of your child.

Often the relations of tragic victims start a campaign, or start a charity, they do something for the good of other people to help them with their grief.

Blessings

Eric

 

[joanofarc2008]

Here is another situation that is more of a current events - how many of us truly have forgiven good old Osama or said a prayer for his soul?

 

[spockrates]

Here is another situation that is more of a current events - how many of us truly have forgiven good old Osama or said a prayer for his soul?

Yes, Joan!



Here is a better thought provoker: Let’s say Osama was a Catholic instead of a Muslim, and the Church excommunicated him for his acts of terrorism. Should I forgive him for the sins for which the Church does not forgive him?

 

[spockrates]

Hello spockrates;

Hey, Eric! Good to hear from you, again!

Even in the circumstances you describe I would say it is better to forgive that lady even if she does not repent.

But think about what you are saying, my friend. Would you really forgive the one your priest does not forgive? She refused to repent and confess her sins, so the priest would not, in good conscience, forgive her.

You cannot know how Jesus would judge her, he may well find grounds to be merciful and forgive her, if Jesus then forgave her and you did not, where does that leave your judgement?

I think that would leave me with following Jesus’ command to demand repentance in order to forgive the one who knowingly and intentionally commits a serious mortal sin.

“If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”

(Luke 17:3-4)

Notice that our Forgiver says, “if he repents, forgive him,” but NOT, “even if he does not repent, forgive him.”

 

[joanofarc2008]

Yes, Joan!



Here is a better thought provoker: Let’s say Osama was a Catholic instead of a Muslim, and the Church excommunicated him for his acts of terrorism. Should I forgive him for the sins for which the Church does not forgive him?

It is not necessarily that the Church does not forgive him - the Church does not give Sacramental absolution - yet we do give forgiveness in our hearts as a Body of Christ. We continue to pray out of sorrow for the sin on that person’s soul - see the St Francis of Assisi quote on True Love many pages back. BTW - I don’t think acts of terrorism is an excommunicable offense.

 

[TimothyH]

We are called to forgive unconditionally, and as other’s have stated, God’s forgiveness of us is conditional on how we forgive others. We pray in the Lord’s Prayer for forgiveness from God in proportion to how we forgive others.

If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions. (Matthew 6:14-15)
My Evangelical friends become indignant when I tell them that God’s forgiveness is in direct proporation to how we forgive others, but this fact is made clear by Jesus himself. The issue however, is not if God is willing to forgive us - he most certainly is - it is whether we harden our heart.

They said to him, “Then why did Moses command that the man give the woman a bill of divorce and dismiss (her)?” He said to them, "Because of the hardness of your hearts Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. (Matthew 19:7-8)
The Pharisees understood what my Evangelical friends to not, that when we do not forgive, we harden our heart so that God’s forgivenss cannot penetrate ours. Using the example of divorce as brought up by the Pharisees, what are we to do when a spouse cheats on us? We are to forgive. Osama Bin Laden? Forgive. Hitler? Forgive.

The disclaimer is that we may need to distance ourselves from a cheating spouse or even seek an end to the secular marriage. We may need to stop Osama, and definitely needed to take decisive action against Hitler. It does not mean that we condone sin. Instead we relinquish all idea that the person owes us something as payback for what they have done to us. That is why some versions of the Lords Prayer use the term “Debt” instead of “Trespass”.

We forgive so that our hearts are softened. Once softened, God’s mercy and forgivenss can penetrate ours.

-Tim-

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

Yes, but what a strange contradiction it is in which we find ourselves!

Would it not instead be an apparent contradiction rather than an actual contradiction though?

spockrates:

Jesus freely forgave from the cross those who did not repent of the mortal sin of murdering Him. But we also agree that this forgiveness likely did not extend to Judas for his part in the mortal sin of murdering Him–nor to others who knowingly commit mortal sins, and who are aware of the consequences of committing them, and who never repent of them. Hence not all of the repentant are forgiven by Jesus.

Something to keep in mind is that all mortal sins are grave sins, but not all grave sins are mortal sins. Something to ponder is when Jesus forgave those who murdered Him on the cross, was he forgiving all those who did not repent of mortal sin (which by definition is grave) or was he forgiving those who had committed grave sin (that is not mortal)?

spockrates:

Next question, the answer to which will help me personally in understanding the extent to which I should forgive: Should you or I forgive Judas for his most grievous sin, and others who commit mortal sins such as murdering those we love without ever considering repenting of their grave wrongs?

We do not know of any one person who we can definitively say by name is unforgiven. An example of someone I wonder if he has been forgiven is Adolf Hitler. Is he in Hell (i.e. not forgiven)? My understanding is that during World War I he was the victim of a nerve gas attack. It is speculated that his brain may have been affected as a result of this attack. Hitler went on to unleash some of the most ungodly atrocities known in human history. Yet, what is his culpability for these wrongs? Could his responsibility for ordering the outright murder of so many millions of people in the most unimaginable means be subject to mitigating factors making his sin not a mortal sin, but instead at best a grave sin? Jesus does say though that many will not pass through the narrow gate. Perhaps Hell is reserved for the person who created the nerve gas bomb, and not Hitler himself?

Should you or I forgive Judas? I would say to the extent we can forgive him, we should. We do not know the soul of Judas like God does. We know Judas to the extent we know him from Scripture. Scripture does not paint a favorable picture of Judas. We do not know if Jesus meant to include Judas in his plea to the Father to forgive those who crucified Him.

My prayer to God regarding Judas might look something like this:

“Lord, Judas betrayed you in a way that is unimaginable to me. I can not see how I can forgive someone who deliberately and knowingly betrayed you. If his soul has the ability to be forgiven Lord, I ask you to give also to me the strength to forgive him as well. Thank you Jesus for hearing my prayer.”

My prayer to God regarding Hitler might look something like this:

“Lord, Hitler betrayed you in a way that is unimaginable to me. I can not see how I can forgive someone who deliberately and knowingly betrayed you. If his soul has the ability to be forgiven Lord, I ask you to give also to me the strength to forgive him as well. Thank you Jesus for hearing my prayer.”

spockrates:

If we should unconditionally forgive them, then would you say it is better to forgive (rather than not forgive) even those who Jesus does not forgive?

We should forgive unconditionally. We do not know who Jesus does not forgive.

 

[spockrates]

It is not necessarily that the Church does not forgive him - the Church does not give Sacramental absolution - yet we do give forgiveness in our hearts as a Body of Christ. We continue to pray out of sorrow for the sin on that person’s soul - see the St Francis of Assisi quote on True Love many pages back. BTW - I don’t think acts of terrorism is an excommunicable offense.

Thanks for the correction, Joan. I’m somewhat new at this Catholic conversion (or should I say reversion?) thing. Haven’t been a Catholic since I was a teen. I like to tell my Evangelical friends that I’ve forgotten more about Catholicism than they’ll ever know!



I’m not sure what sin might result in excommunication; if you know of one, please let me know that we might use it as an example for discussion. What I’m trying to find out are two things: What is forgiveness, and how should I forgive. You seem to be saying that forgiveness is not feeling anger, and that I should forgive unconditionally by not holding a grudge. I agree that forgiving in this sense should be unconditional, and I can even see examples in Sacred Scripture of Jesus forgiving in this way. Rather than rejoicing or gnashing His teeth in anger at those now in Hell, I can see Him weeping, instead. After all, when He saw the result of sin (which is death) He wept. I don’t think He wants any of us to suffer the consequences resulting from the guilt of our sin, as our first Pope wrote:

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

(2 Peter 3:9)

What confuses me is that you say excommunication is not an example of being unforgiving, it is instead an example of withholding the Sacrament of Absolution. You see, I’m thinking that absolving someone from her is IS the same as forgiving, and repentance is a condition one must meet to be absolved. For me, my personal struggle to forgive does not resolve merely around the issue of not remaining angry; it centers more on not holding the sin against the sinner. What I’m asking is this: What does a person have to do (if anything) before I should absolve her for the sin she committed against me personally.

Let’s use an example: Say someone owes me a good deal of money. She borrowed the money, promising to pay it back. She then does not pay it back. When I ask her to pay it back, she refuses. Now, I do pray for the strength to not seethe with anger, but should I also pray for the strength to FORGIVE THE DEBT and resist the temptation to take her to small claims court? or would you say forgiving a debt (or forgiving the consequences of the guilt of one’s sin) is NOT how I should forgive?

 

[spockrates]

We are called to forgive unconditionally, and as other’s have stated, God’s forgiveness of us is conditional on how we forgive others. We pray in the Lord’s Prayer for forgiveness from God in proportion to how we forgive others.

If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions. (Matthew 6:14-15)
My Evangelical friends become indignant when I tell them that God’s forgiveness is in direct proporation to how we forgive others, but this fact is made clear by Jesus himself. The issue however, is not if God is willing to forgive us - he most certainly is - it is whether we harden our heart.

They said to him, “Then why did Moses command that the man give the woman a bill of divorce and dismiss (her)?” He said to them, "Because of the hardness of your hearts Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. (Matthew 19:7-8)
The Pharisees understood what my Evangelical friends to not, that when we do not forgive, we harden our heart so that God’s forgivenss cannot penetrate ours. Using the example of divorce as brought up by the Pharisees, what are we to do when a spouse cheats on us? We are to forgive. Osama Bin Laden? Forgive. Hitler? Forgive.

The disclaimer is that we may need to distance ourselves from a cheating spouse or even seek an end to the secular marriage. We may need to stop Osama, and definitely needed to take decisive action against Hitler. It does not mean that we condone sin. Instead we relinquish all idea that the person owes us something as payback for what they have done to us. That is why some versions of the Lords Prayer use the term “Debt” instead of “Trespass”.

We forgive so that our hearts are softened. Once softened, God’s mercy and forgivenss can penetrate ours.

-Tim-

Welcome to the dialog, Tim! Please forgive me for asking this: Are you saying that we should never forgive the way Jesus forgives us? Do you mean to say that He forgives us conditionally, but we should never forgive conditionally?

 

[spockrates]

Would it not instead be an apparent contradiction rather than an actual contradiction though?

Something to keep in mind is that all mortal sins are grave sins, but not all grave sins are mortal sins. Something to ponder is when Jesus forgave those who murdered Him on the cross, was he forgiving all those who did not repent of mortal sin (which by definition is grave) or was he forgiving those who had committed grave sin (that is not mortal)?

We do not know of any one person who we can definitively say by name is unforgiven. An example of someone I wonder if he has been forgiven is Adolf Hitler. Is he in Hell (i.e. not forgiven)? My understanding is that during World War I he was the victim of a nerve gas attack. It is speculated that his brain may have been affected as a result of this attack. Hitler went on to unleash some of the most ungodly atrocities known in human history. Yet, what is his culpability for these wrongs? Could his responsibility for ordering the outright murder of so many millions of people in the most unimaginable means be subject to mitigating factors making his sin not a mortal sin, but instead at best a grave sin? Jesus does say though that many will not pass through the narrow gate. Perhaps Hell is reserved for the person who created the nerve gas bomb, and not Hitler himself?

Should you or I forgive Judas? I would say to the extent we can forgive him, we should. We do not know the soul of Judas like God does. We know Judas to the extent we know him from Scripture. Scripture does not paint a favorable picture of Judas. We do not know if Jesus meant to include Judas in his plea to the Father to forgive those who crucified Him.

My prayer to God regarding Judas might look something like this:

“Lord, Judas betrayed you in a way that is unimaginable to me. I can not see how I can forgive someone who deliberately and knowingly betrayed you. If his soul has the ability to be forgiven Lord, I ask you to give also to me the strength to forgive him as well. Thank you Jesus for hearing my prayer.”

My prayer to God regarding Hitler might look something like this:

“Lord, Hitler betrayed you in a way that is unimaginable to me. I can not see how I can forgive someone who deliberately and knowingly betrayed you. If his soul has the ability to be forgiven Lord, I ask you to give also to me the strength to forgive him as well. Thank you Jesus for hearing my prayer.”

We should forgive unconditionally. We do not know who Jesus does not forgive.

Thanks for the reply, Sty! Perhaps it is merely an apparent contradiction; that remains to be seen!



I hear what you are saying, but am not yet sure I understand well enough to agree. Let me see if I can adequately express why. You said in the previous post:

Then why would my short answer be no? When Jesus died on the cross, he offered his forgiveness to us freely. That means that we are forgiven no matter what we do. Jesus does not technically require us to repent in order to have access to salvation. However, repentence is for our own sake. It opens the doors to Christ’s saving Grace and without it we can not be saved no matter how freely it is offered to us. I’ve heard hell described as a place where the doors are locked from the inside - not the outside. I agree with this analogy. Jesus wants desparately to show that he has forgiven us despite the many times we have failed Him miserably.

I agree that He forgave freely, but I wonder if that is the same as forgiving unconditionally. You see, what Jesus prayed was this:

“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”

(Luke 23:34)

It seems to me that if forgiveness should always be unconditional, then Jesus would have prayed, “Father, forgive them, even if they know what they are doing!” So isn’t the condition for which they were forgiven that they did “not know what they are doing”? Isn’t ignorance of one’s sin a condition one might meet in order for me to forgive her?

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

…It seems to me that if forgiveness should always be unconditional, then Jesus would have prayed, “Father, forgive them, even if they know what they are doing!” So isn’t the condition for which they were forgiven that they did “not know what they are doing”? Isn’t ignorance of one’s sin a condition one might meet in order for me to forgive her?

Well, let’s take a look at Matthew chapter 18.

Matthew 18:7 "Woe to the world because of things that cause sin! Such things must come, but woe to the one through whom they come!"

The “woe to the one through whom they come” seems to me to be an unrepentant sinner.

Matthew 18:12 "If a man has a hundred sheep and one of them goes astray, will he not leave the ninety-nine in the hills and go in search of the stray?"

One who needs to be searched for because they have gone astray seems to me to be an unrepentant sinner.

Matthew 18:16-17 "If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector."

One in need of correction is an unrepentant sinner. The theme I see here is the constant seeking out and attempting to bring into the fold an unrepentant sinner. There does seem to come a point that we are to treat the person as a “Gentile or tax collector” (whatever that means ). However, then this episode comes up…

**Matthew 18:21-23 Then Peter approaching asked him, “Lord, if my brother sins against me, how often must I forgive him? As many as seven times?” Jesus answered, "I say to you, not seven times but seventy-seven times. That is why the kingdom of heaven may be likened to a king who decided to settle accounts with his servants. **

Having just read the other accounts above and Jesus saying that at a certain point we can treat the person just like a “Gentile or tax collector”, I can understand from Peter’s standpoint that perhaps the limit of offering forgiveness is seven times. However, the parable reads as follows:

**Matthew 18:24-35 “When he began the accounting, a debtor was brought before him who owed him a huge amount. Since he had no way of paying it back, his master ordered him to be sold, along with his wife, his children, and all his property, in payment of the debt. At that, the servant fell down, did him homage, and said, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay you back in full.’ Moved with compassion the master of that servant let him go and forgave him the loan. When that servant had left, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a much smaller amount. He seized him and started to choke him, demanding, ‘Pay back what you owe.’ Falling to his knees, his fellow servant begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.’ But he refused. Instead, he had him put in prison until he paid back the debt. Now when his fellow servants saw what had happened, they were deeply disturbed, and went to their master and reported the whole affair. His master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you your entire debt because you begged me to. Should you not have had pity on your fellow servant, as I had pity on you?’ Then in anger his master handed him over to the torturers until he should pay back the whole debt. So will my heavenly Father do to you, unless each of you forgives his brother from his heart.” **

Imagine the utter confusion by some of those listening to these words of Jesus. I’m not sure if the parable of the prodigal son was already taught by Jesus. In that parable, the son who wasted his inheritance came to a point that he would repent of his actions. The father did not seek out his son in that scenario, the son concluded he needed to repent so he could hopefully be fed. Here Jesus talks about seeking out unrepentant sinners without them turning towards him at all! Then Jesus gives a parable of someone who did repent of their actions and he ends up being tortured for a debt he can not repay.

Does that make Jesus’s forgiveness unconditional? It appears that forgiveness that is given can be withdrawn! Hmmm, I suppose you could argue that the condition put on the wicked servant was that he needed to treat those who owed him a debt in the same manner as Jesus treats us when he looks at our sins. But what of the seemingly endless cycle of the wicked servant who now has sinned again (owes another debt) by not forgiving the debt of his fellow servant? Doesn’t that potentially put us back at square one time and time again? He sins, he repents, he sins again. I think that’s where the unforgivable sin of sin against the Holy Spirit comes in. Hmmm, unforgivable sin? Well, perhaps that’s the realm of the third person of the Holy Trinity. Maybe Jesus forgives unconditionally, but the Holy Spirit does not? Nothing like opening up another can of worms.

Going back to your question: Do you need to forgive her? Well, Jesus forgave you - you should do the same. If you don’t, aren’t you acting in the same manner as the wicked servant in the parable? In the Lord’s Prayer, we even ask God to forgive us as we forgive others.

Oh, let me just throw this out there while we’re at it. Isn’t it ironic that this information comes from Matthew’s Gospel, a former tax collector?

 

[joanofarc2008]

Thanks for the correction, Joan. I’m somewhat new at this Catholic conversion (or should I say reversion?) thing. Haven’t been a Catholic since I was a teen. I like to tell my Evangelical friends that I’ve forgotten more about Catholicism than they’ll ever know!



I’m not sure what sin might result in excommunication; if you know of one, please let me know that we might use it as an example for discussion. What I’m trying to find out are two things: What is forgiveness, and how should I forgive. You seem to be saying that forgiveness is not feeling anger, and that I should forgive unconditionally by not holding a grudge. I agree that forgiving in this sense should be unconditional, and I can even see examples in Sacred Scripture of Jesus forgiving in this way. Rather than rejoicing or gnashing His teeth in anger at those now in Hell, I can see Him weeping, instead. After all, when He saw the result of sin (which is death) He wept. I don’t think He wants any of us to suffer the consequences resulting from the guilt of our sin, as our first Pope wrote:

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

(2 Peter 3:9)

What confuses me is that you say excommunication is not an example of being unforgiving, it is instead an example of withholding the Sacrament of Absolution. You see, I’m thinking that absolving someone from her is IS the same as forgiving, and repentance is a condition one must meet to be absolved. For me, my personal struggle to forgive does not resolve merely around the issue of not remaining angry; it centers more on not holding the sin against the sinner. What I’m asking is this: What does a person have to do (if anything) before I should absolve her for the sin she committed against me personally.

Let’s use an example: Say someone owes me a good deal of money. She borrowed the money, promising to pay it back. She then does not pay it back. When I ask her to pay it back, she refuses. Now, I do pray for the strength to not seethe with anger, but should I also pray for the strength to FORGIVE THE DEBT and resist the temptation to take her to small claims court? or would you say forgiving a debt (or forgiving the consequences of the guilt of one’s sin) is NOT how I should forgive?

Here you go check this link - and by the way - all current excommunications for the most part are self-excommunications - there are some that the Popes and Bishops do but for the most part they are self-excommunications meaning that all that has to happen is that the person goes to the appropriate prelate for confession and the excommunication is lifted so excommunication is not a good example.

newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm

 

[caoindealbhan]

Forgiving is an act of freeing yourself of the anger of righteousness. So go ahead and give yourself a great gift. Forgiving does not mean forgetting, and it further doesn’t mean to become a victim of another’s wrong actions. If the person persists in these actions, you avoid them at all cost. Some people need to be loved at a “distance.”

 

[RosaryFan]

Fan:

Thanks for the reply, and please forgive me for taking so long to respond–family and work kept me away.



Let’s say that the person was not a nut job, but just recklessly irresponsible. Let’s say that you later learn that her sin was not only reckless, but also intentional! The person had intentionally done this before. She is arrested for the crime, and for the crime of intentionally running down other children. She pleads guilty to murder in the first degree, and is sentenced to death my lethal injection.

Your parish priest goes to the prison to give her last rites. She spits in his face and says she will not confess her sins, and will not repent of them, and is glad that she killed the children and would gladly do it again.



After the execution you have a conversation with the priest who tells you that he fears she is hell bound, for she refused to repent of this horrific mortal sin.

My next question, which is of personal importance to me: If it is likely that Jesus will not forgive such an extreme case of mortal sin, then should we? If we should forgive the unrepentant and gravely serious sin, then would you say it is better to forgive (rather than not forgive) those who Jesus Himself does not forgive?

Okay, Spock, you’re making me dizzy now! I would say if Jesus has asked us to forgive everyone every offense, then that is what we should do (even though I, personally, fall short of this goal many, many times). If Jesus does not forgive the unrepentant soul, then that is for Him to do, because He is the just judge, not I. So if Jesus withholds forgiveness, then that is okay because He is the just judge and He determines that withholding forgiveness is just. I cannot make that determination, so I, therefore, must forgive (even though I admit, I don’t always do).

 

[spockrates]

Well, let’s take a look at Matthew chapter 18.

Matthew 18:7 "Woe to the world because of things that cause sin! Such things must come, but woe to the one through whom they come!"

The “woe to the one through whom they come” seems to me to be an unrepentant sinner.

Matthew 18:12 "If a man has a hundred sheep and one of them goes astray, will he not leave the ninety-nine in the hills and go in search of the stray?"

One who needs to be searched for because they have gone astray seems to me to be an unrepentant sinner.

Matthew 18:16-17 "If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector."

One in need of correction is an unrepentant sinner. The theme I see here is the constant seeking out and attempting to bring into the fold an unrepentant sinner. There does seem to come a point that we are to treat the person as a “Gentile or tax collector” (whatever that means ). However, then this episode comes up…

**Matthew 18:21-23 Then Peter approaching asked him, “Lord, if my brother sins against me, how often must I forgive him? As many as seven times?” Jesus answered, "I say to you, not seven times but seventy-seven times. That is why the kingdom of heaven may be likened to a king who decided to settle accounts with his servants. **

Having just read the other accounts above and Jesus saying that at a certain point we can treat the person just like a “Gentile or tax collector”, I can understand from Peter’s standpoint that perhaps the limit of offering forgiveness is seven times. However, the parable reads as follows:

**Matthew 18:24-35 “When he began the accounting, a debtor was brought before him who owed him a huge amount. Since he had no way of paying it back, his master ordered him to be sold, along with his wife, his children, and all his property, in payment of the debt. At that, the servant fell down, did him homage, and said, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay you back in full.’ Moved with compassion the master of that servant let him go and forgave him the loan. When that servant had left, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a much smaller amount. He seized him and started to choke him, demanding, ‘Pay back what you owe.’ Falling to his knees, his fellow servant begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.’ But he refused. Instead, he had him put in prison until he paid back the debt. Now when his fellow servants saw what had happened, they were deeply disturbed, and went to their master and reported the whole affair. His master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you your entire debt because you begged me to. Should you not have had pity on your fellow servant, as I had pity on you?’ Then in anger his jmaster handed him over to the torturers until he should pay back the whole debt. So will my heavenly Father do to you, unless each of you forgives his brother from his heart.” **

Wonderfully applicable parable, Sty! Please see my next reply. Also, please try to answer this: How did the master want the servant to forgive the one who owed him the debt? Did he want him to not have any hard feelings, but still have him thrown in debtor’s prison? or did he want him to not have any hard feelings AND also completely forgive the debt owed to him. This is an important question, I think. The answer to this question will help us consider exactly what forgiveness is. I’m thinking there is not just one way to forgive, but many, and forgiveness is a matter of degree.

What are you thinking?

 

[spockrates]

Imagine the utter confusion by some of those listening to these words of Jesus. I’m not sure if the parable of the prodigal son was already taught by Jesus. In that parable, the son who wasted his inheritance came to a point that he would repent of his actions. The father did not seek out his son in that scenario, the son concluded he needed to repent so he could hopefully be fed. Here Jesus talks about seeking out unrepentant sinners without them turning towards him at all! Then Jesus gives a parable of someone who did repent of their actions and he ends up being tortured for a debt he can not repay.

Does that make Jesus’s forgiveness unconditional? It appears that forgiveness that is given can be withdrawn! Hmmm, I suppose you could argue that the condition put on the wicked servant was that he needed to treat those who owed him a debt in the same manner as Jesus treats us when he looks at our sins. But what of the seemingly endless cycle of the wicked servant who now has sinned again (owes another debt) by not forgiving the debt of his fellow servant? Doesn’t that potentially put us back at square one time and time again? He sins, he repents, he sins again. I think that’s where the unforgivable sin of sin against the Holy Spirit comes in. Hmmm, unforgivable sin? Well, perhaps that’s the realm of the third person of the Holy Trinity. Maybe Jesus forgives unconditionally, but the Holy Spirit does not? Nothing like opening up another can of worms.

Going back to your question: Do you need to forgive her? Well, Jesus forgave you - you should do the same. If you don’t, aren’t you acting in the same manner as the wicked servant in the parable? In the Lord’s Prayer, we even ask God to forgive us as we forgive others.

Oh, let me just throw this out there while we’re at it. Isn’t it ironic that this information comes from Matthew’s Gospel, a former tax collector?

Extremely good questions, my friend!



I do not think it possible for the Son of God to forgive differently from the Holy Spirit, or the Father God, for that matter. Begin God, they are all perfect, and all forgive perfectly. So if one of them were to forgive differently, then logic tells us that one of them would forgive less than perfectly. They must all forgive the same in a particular circumstance. HOWEVER, they might all forgive the same (though in a different way) for different people in different circumstances.

For example, think again of Jesus’ words from the cross:

“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”

(Luke 23:34)

Now think of the parable you just mentioned. The wicked servant in that parable knew what he was doing. Ignorance was not likely a condition for which he should be forgiven. HOWEVER, as you said, repentance might have been, for the unrepentant sinner must become repentant, I think. Jesus seems to agree, for elsewhere in Luke’s Gospel He says:

“So watch yourselves. If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.”

(Luke 17:3)

I’m thinking this: Forgiveness is conditional. For the one who does not know what she is doing, we should forgive her because she meets the condition of being ignorant of her sin. For the one who does know what she is doing, we should respectfully confront her in order to convince her to repent, because for her, repentance is the condition she must meet to be forgiven.

Does that sound right to you?

 

[spockrates]

Here you go check this link - and by the way - all current excommunications for the most part are self-excommunications - there are some that the Popes and Bishops do but for the most part they are self-excommunications meaning that all that has to happen is that the person goes to the appropriate prelate for confession and the excommunication is lifted so excommunication is not a good example.

newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm

Thanks for the link, Joan! I’ll check it out and let you know what I think. In the meantime, please answer me this: Doesn’t Jesus statement in this passage of Sacred Scripture teach that sometimes it is OK (even the most right thing to do) to NOT forgive?

"If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

(John 20:23)

I mean, even if we can demonstrate that this passage applies only to priests and other pastors, isn’t the implication that sometimes a priest cannot forgive someone for her sin if (for example) she refuses to repent of that sin? I imagine there are rare times when a priest must tell someone at confession that her sins will not be forgiven until she repents. Don’t you?