To forgive, or not to forgive?

[Stylteralmaldo]

…a contradiction, though it might at first glance appear to be a living truth, is a still-born lie. Will you at the moment, at least until more information comes to light, agree that this seems to be the truth?

I can accept the premise that what may first appear to be a living truth, could in fact be a still-born lie, just as I can accept the premise that what appears to be a contradiction may in fact be a living truth without contradiction.

spockrates:

…the sinner refuses to confess the sin to God, or to a priest, or to others…

Regarding this point, it seems to me that the sinner would refuse to confess the sin to God (via non-Sacrmental confession), or to a priest (who is acting in persona Christi in Sacramental confession), but not necessarily to others (unless I suppose God choses to have said individual in the priestly role outside of our human knowledge…after all God can do what He choses to do whether it is through the known means of doing so or not).

socrates:

In either case, at least as far as God is concerned, the forgiveness is conditioned on meeting the latter conditions. Therefore, God’s forgiveness (at least in this particular example of the so-called “unforgivable” sin) is conditional. Do you agree?

A married couple make some decisions individually based on their expertise in some cases and in others they make them jointly because they are no longer two, but one flesh. The mother may make a decision whether or not to breastfeed her child or to use formula. The father may give (name removed by moderator)ut regarding that decision, but the decision rests with the mother with no conditions because it isn’t up to the father how to the child will physically obtain the nutrition it needs. There are other situations where the couple needs to make the decision jointly such as the purchase of a home where each spouse needs to take into consideration what the other wants for where they will live. In this case there are conditions placed on each other.

Forgiveness is a matter of degree. Overall, I would say that God’s forgiveness is conditional. Individually, it depends on the person of the Triune Godhead making the decision because it is their area of expertise. If one member of the Trinity makes an unconditional decision, that doesn’t contradict conditional responses by the “two made one” via their marriage (such as if the mother unconditionally decides to use formula to feed the child, the couple may need to mutually (conditionally) come to agreement as to how best to obtain the necessary funds to purchase the formula).

Whether we come to Jesus or not, Jesus forgives us. If we have been endowed with the gift of the Holy Spirit to recognize the importance of repenting of a mortal sin yet refuse to do so, we are deciding to not accept the forgiveness that is right in front of our face. This is an offense against the Holy Spirit and not Jesus.

Socrates:

Can a person both know, and not know, that which he knows?

Can we know the realm of God, and not know the realm of God which God knows?

The difficulty here is that we know on some level the realm of God. We are Baptised into Him. We receive Him in the Blessed Sacrament. We have been endowed with the gifts of the Holy Spirit to spread His Kingdom throughout the world. We know Him through our married partner and through our pastor. We also can know him through our illnesses and yes…through confessing our sins. Yet, through all these means of knowing our God, we only have a glimpse. We are not endowed with actually being God.

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

Is it possible that Jesus the human (i.e., the Son of Man) forgave the man, but Jesus the God (i.e., the Son of God) did not? For that matter, is it possible that the Son of God forgave the man, but the Holy Spirit of God and the Father God did not? If the Jesus the Man forgave, but the Son of God and the Holy Spirit and the Father God did not, then how could He have the authority to forgive sins and truly say, “Your sins are forgiven”?

Time is short for me at the moment, so I can’t respond adequately at the moment, but let me throw this at you to chew on:

How are the three persons of the Trinity different from the God component of God?

If they are the same, why do we even need a Triune God since ultimately they are the same anyway?

Gotta run…hopefully I can respond in the not too distant future.

I am immensely enjoying our conversation. Take care and have a great day!

 

[spockrates]

Time is short for me at the moment, so I can’t respond adequately at the moment … Gotta run; hopefully I can respond in the not too distant future. I am immensely enjoying our conversation. Take care and have a great day!

I’m enjoying the dialog, too!



My only hope is that others might enjoy it, and learn from it, as much as I myself have.



Also, please don’t feel pressured to rush to answer. Take your time and answer when you feel the time is right. That’s the beauty of a discussion forum. It allows someone like you or I to be one, as Socrates said, who is:

… caring not whether his words are many or few, his only aim is to attain the truth.

(Theaetetus, 172)

Winning the truth is what matters, but there is in no way a race to see who gets there first!

How are the three persons of the Trinity different from the God component of God?

If they are the same, why do we even need a Triune God since ultimately they are the same anyway?

Well, a Protestant teacher from whom I used to learn (and I’m sure some teachers in the Catholic Church tell us the same) often said this: “God is one what in three whos.” Since the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are persons, I believe it’s pretty certain God is not a person. For if God were a person, then the Trinity would mean that God was one person, and also not one person (or also three persons). This would be a logical contradiction, and logical contradictions are never true.

We can also say that the person of the Father is not God, and neither is the person of the Son God, nor the person of the Holy Spirit God. For if they were each God, then God would be one God, and also not one God (or also three Gods). This, as well, would be a logical contradiction, and obviously untrue.

This is why, I think, the Church chooses to carefully say that God is one God IN three persons. For such language avoids any contradiction, and although we cannot fully comprehend how one being can be three persons, we can apprehend that it is not contradictory (nor illogical) to say so.

However, I think it is illogical and contradictory to say that one person of the Trinity forgives only unconditionally and another person of the Trinity forgives only conditionally. The reason why I believe this is a contradiction is that when the Son of God forgives, it’s not merely the person of the Son who is forgiving; it’s also the *what *of the one true God *in *the person who is forgiving. That same *what *of the one true God in the Son, is the same *what *of the one true God of the Father, and the same *what *of the one true God in the Holy Spirit. Therefore, logic tells me, that it is impossible for the Son to forgive differently from the Holy Spirit, or from the Father, because it is impossible for the one true God, who is in the Son and also in the Holy Spirit and also in the Father to forgive differently from the way it itself forgives. To say that the one true God forgives unconditionally, and at the same time not unconditionally, is to hold a logical contradiction, which is never true.

This is one reason why, I believe, when Saint Philip the Apostle asked Jesus to show the Father to them, He replied:

Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.

(John 14:9-11)

It seems to me that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are so closely linked to one another that one of them cannot act in a way contrary to another one of them, but every decision the Father makes is followed perfectly by the other two. The way that the Father forgives is, hence, exactly the way that the Son and Holy Spirit forgive. For not only is the same one God in each of them, but also there is only one perfect way to forgive in any one situation. Since everything that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit do is perfect, each of them forgive the one perfect way applicable to each unique person, circumstance and situation.

Does this sound logical and true to you?

 

[spockrates]

I can accept the premise that what may first appear to be a living truth, could in fact be a still-born lie, just as I can accept the premise that what appears to be a contradiction may in fact be a living truth without contradiction.

Regarding this point, it seems to me that the sinner would refuse to confess the sin to God (via non-Sacrmental confession), or to a priest (who is acting in persona Christi in Sacramental confession), but not necessarily to others (unless I suppose God choses to have said individual in the priestly role outside of our human knowledge…after all God can do what He choses to do whether it is through the known means of doing so or not).

A married couple make some decisions individually based on their expertise in some cases and in others they make them jointly because they are no longer two, but one flesh. The mother may make a decision whether or not to breastfeed her child or to use formula. The father may give (name removed by moderator)ut regarding that decision, but the decision rests with the mother with no conditions because it isn’t up to the father how to the child will physically obtain the nutrition it needs. There are other situations where the couple needs to make the decision jointly such as the purchase of a home where each spouse needs to take into consideration what the other wants for where they will live. In this case there are conditions placed on each other.

Forgiveness is a matter of degree. Overall, I would say that God’s forgiveness is conditional. Individually, it depends on the person of the Triune Godhead making the decision because it is their area of expertise. If one member of the Trinity makes an unconditional decision, that doesn’t contradict conditional responses by the “two made one” via their marriage (such as if the mother unconditionally decides to use formula to feed the child, the couple may need to mutually (conditionally) come to agreement as to how best to obtain the necessary funds to purchase the formula).

Whether we come to Jesus or not, Jesus forgives us. If we have been endowed with the gift of the Holy Spirit to recognize the importance of repenting of a mortal sin yet refuse to do so, we are deciding to not accept the forgiveness that is right in front of our face. This is an offense against the Holy Spirit and not Jesus.

Can we know the realm of God, and not know the realm of God which God knows?

The difficulty here is that we know on some level the realm of God. We are Baptised into Him. We receive Him in the Blessed Sacrament. We have been endowed with the gifts of the Holy Spirit to spread His Kingdom throughout the world. We know Him through our married partner and through our pastor. We also can know him through our illnesses and yes…through confessing our sins. Yet, through all these means of knowing our God, we only have a glimpse. We are not endowed with actually being God.

I think I’ve pretty much replied to this in the previous post. The analogy of the relationship of a married couple, it seems to me, is not quite adequate to explain the relationship of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. For the married couple are not one God in two persons. If they were one God in two persons, they would never disagree with one another, nor act contrary to one another, for that would mean that the one God in the both of them was acting contrary to itself, which is impossible for one being to accomplish.

Would you say, then, that when it comes to the one true God (who is in the three persons of the Trinity) that the answer to this question:

Can one God forgive, and also not forgive, the one forgiven?

is this? “No, one God cannot forgive, and also not forgive, the one forgiven.”

 

[spockrates]

Binding and loosing was the set of verses that gave the disciples and those that followed in the line of apostolic succession the authority of Reconiciliation (in Matthew there is also some belief that there is some additional authority for Papal Infallibility but that is way off track in this thread) - in other words you are confusing Sacramental absolution with forgiveness which is what tanked the last conversation.

Well, it seems logical to me to infer that Sacramental Absolution is a kind of forgiveness. After all, you said that this passage of Sacred Scripture,

"If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

(John 20:23)

describes Sacramental Absolution, and Jesus uses the word forgive, rather than absolution. In other words,

Sacramental Absolution = Forgiving

Would you agree that Sacramental Absolution is a kind of forgiveness, albeit a kind that only a Apostolic Successor can give?

Joan:

I suppose that Socrates and I have a similar flaw (although some might call it a asset):

I have, I fear, a tedious way of putting a simple question.

(Theaetetus, 163)

So please forgive me if I’m bordering on being too tedious. You see, what I’m now wondering (and the simple question I now have) is this: Can one forgive, and also not forgive, the one she forgives?

The answer to the question, I think, is this: Yes, she can! That is, she can if she forgives by not holding a grudge, but does not forgive by absolving the person for the wrong done. (Now I’m not talking eternal absolution, as if you or I could forgive the sins committed against the only Holy God. I’m talking personal absolution, as in, say, forgiving a debt someone owes you or me.)

Let’s say you let a neighbor borrow your car, because her car is being repaired and she has no way to get to work. Say she gets in an accident and your car is damaged extensively. Now you should, I agree, forgive her by not remaining angry at her. You might (but are not required to) forgive her by canceling the debt she owes to you, which is the debt to replace, or pay the cost of repairing, your car. It would be unusually kind and giving to forgive such a debt, and I don’t believe God would expect such forgiveness. So it seems you or I should always forgive by not holding a grudge, but not always forgive by personally absolving a person of her sin. That is, you or I *can *actually both forgive, and not forgive, the one forgiven! Don’t you agree?

 

[FrankOfBoston]

Wow! I thank God for this site. I can not think of a more important, or at least a more imperative, topic than forgiveness.

We hear so much about the importance of forgiving the wrongs done us, yet precious little about the how of forgiveness. To echo and try to sum up what’s been said already on this thread, forgiveness must be a special instance of Christian love, which is an act of the will (not dependent on how we feel-very important!). I can make the decision to forgive a wrong despite knowing that, for the rest of my life, I will probably be reminded of the wrong, by any number of random things, from time to time, and that the memory of it may well be accompanied by negative emotion (resentment). If/when that occurs, I don’t have to kick myself as though my previous effort to forgive the wrong had been in vane; I just need to renew my decision to forgive the wrong, perhaps by an act of love for the person, like praying for them.

I had come to this conclusion already, but it’s reassuring to hear it from brothers and sisters in Christ.

The first time I ever made the decision to pray for someone whom i was otherwise offended by, it wasn’t easy, yet I kept at it and, I kid you not, the day came when the “edge” was off the discomfort. I was actually closer to seeing the person as another child of God and to caring for their well-being.

In all things, prayer seems to be the key, along with the willingness to open the heart.

Amazing!

God bless

 

[joanofarc2008]

Joan:

I suppose that Socrates and I have a similar flaw (although some might call it a asset):

I have, I fear, a tedious way of putting a simple question.

(Theaetetus, 163)

So please forgive me if I’m bordering on being too tedious. You see, what I’m now wondering (and the simple question I now have) is this: Can one forgive, and also not forgive, the one she forgives?

The answer to the question, I think, is this: Yes, she can! That is, she can if she forgives by not holding a grudge, but does not forgive by absolving the person for the wrong done. (Now I’m not talking eternal absolution, as if you or I could forgive the sins committed against the only Holy God. I’m talking personal absolution, as in, say, forgiving a debt someone owes you or me.)

Let’s say you let a neighbor borrow your car, because her car is being repaired and she has no way to get to work. Say she gets in an accident and your car is damaged extensively. Now you should, I agree, forgive her by not remaining angry at her. You might (but are not required to) forgive her by canceling the debt she owes to you, which is the debt to replace, or pay the cost of repairing, your car. It would be unusually kind and giving to forgive such a debt, and I don’t believe God would expect such forgiveness. So it seems you or I should always forgive by not holding a grudge, but not always forgive by personally absolving a person of her sin. That is, you or I *can *actually both forgive, and not forgive, the one forgiven! Don’t you agree?

No, not at all - paying the debt is penance - this is an example again of the difference between personal forgiveness and Sacramental absolution. When the penance is not performed would you not say that this is a separate sin? Also remember an “eye for an eye.” This is not an OT call for a death penalty but rather a social justice equalizing of punishment. Just some thoughts being thrown out here that I feel are relevant although I feel we are straying very close to what got this thread closed last time.

 

[Fictilis]

We must forgive; at the very least, for the love of God.

I think of St. Luke 23:34
And Jesus said: Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do

And, consider the Our Father, taught by Jesus, True man, True God:
…and forgive us of our trespasses as we forgive those that trespass against us…

And by the parable Jesus gave: the unforgiving servant

Love is a choice of will.

 

[Ender]

for·give[fer-giv] Show IPA verb, -gave, -giv·en, -giv·ing.
–verb (used with object:

1. to grant pardon for or remission of (an offense, debt, etc.); absolve.
2. to give up all claim on account of; remit (a debt, obligation, etc.).
3. to grant pardon to (a person).
4. to cease to feel resentment against: to forgive one’s enemies.
5. to cancel an indebtedness or liability of: to forgive the interest owed on a loan. Looking at these definitions, I quite agree with you that one should not always forgive everyone, for everything, every time, without exception in the ways described by definitions (1), (2), (3) or (5). But what do you think of method (4)? Do you think it possible (and even appropriate) to forgive everyone, for everything, every time, without exception in the way of (4). Should we always cease to feel resentment against someone, no matter how seriously they wrong us?

Sorry to take so long to respond to this; had weekend visitors … and I’ve also been struggling to form a response.

Clearly we are in agreement over definitions 1-3 and 5 (forgiveness without exception is not called for). Regarding 4, this one seems to be more about what is beneficial to the offended party than to the offender. That is, putting away anger and resentment is perhaps the best approach for the person who has been hurt to heal and move on. If that is in fact true then forgiveness, since in this case it is about helping the person who actually deserves the help, should be granted.

Separating out the different meanings of forgive helped clarify the problem - nice job.

Ender

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

"spockrates:

Is it possible that Jesus the human (i.e., the Son of Man) forgave the man, but Jesus the God (i.e., the Son of God) did not? For that matter, is it possible that the Son of God forgave the man, but the Holy Spirit of God and the Father God did not? If the Jesus the Man forgave, but the Son of God and the Holy Spirit and the Father God did not, then how could He have the authority to forgive sins and truly say, “Your sins are forgiven”?

spockrates:

The analogy of the relationship of a married couple, it seems to me, is not quite adequate to explain the relationship of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. For the married couple are not one God in two persons. If they were one God in two persons, they would never disagree with one another, nor act contrary to one another, for that would mean that the one God in the both of them was acting contrary to itself, which is impossible for one being to accomplish.

spockrates:

Can one God forgive, and also not forgive, the one forgiven?

The point I am trying to make is that the forgiveness that pertains to each person can be different, but that does not mean the different forms contradict each other.
Jesus forgives sin unconditionally to all persons whom He knows. Jesus knows those who have been given the Grace of God through the Holy Spirit. If you reject the Grace of the Holy Spirit, you have placed a condition on yourself to not have access to Jesus so you can be forgiven in the first place. It’s a case of the Trinity having different functions, not different opinions.

My only hope is that others might enjoy it, and learn from it, as much as I myself have.

I’m learning much as well. I pray God will help me grow in my faith and increase it all the days of my life. My prayer is for you also and all who read this thread.

 

[spockrates]

Wow! I thank God for this site. I can not think of a more important, or at least a more imperative, topic than forgiveness.

We hear so much about the importance of forgiving the wrongs done us, yet precious little about the how of forgiveness. To echo and try to sum up what’s been said already on this thread, forgiveness must be a special instance of Christian love, which is an act of the will (not dependent on how we feel-very important!). I can make the decision to forgive a wrong despite knowing that, for the rest of my life, I will probably be reminded of the wrong, by any number of random things, from time to time, and that the memory of it may well be accompanied by negative emotion (resentment). If/when that occurs, I don’t have to kick myself as though my previous effort to forgive the wrong had been in vane; I just need to renew my decision to forgive the wrong, perhaps by an act of love for the person, like praying for them.

I had come to this conclusion already, but it’s reassuring to hear it from brothers and sisters in Christ.

The first time I ever made the decision to pray for someone whom i was otherwise offended by, it wasn’t easy, yet I kept at it and, I kid you not, the day came when the “edge” was off the discomfort. I was actually closer to seeing the person as another child of God and to caring for their well-being.

In all things, prayer seems to be the key, along with the willingness to open the heart.

Amazing!

God bless

Welcome to the dialog, FOB! Glad to see you feel as the rest of us that it is a topic worthy of exploring.



Yes, I agree prayer is a key to unlocking the power of forgiveness. I’ve found these words of Saint Paul the Apostle true time and again:

Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

(Philippians 4:6-7)

I also think that understanding what forgiveness truly is, is also a key that unlocks the secret to forgiving as Christ forgave us. For how can you or I know we are forgiving if we don’t completely know what forgiving is? Prayer, I’d say, is also the key to knowing the nature of forgiveness, for Saint James tells us:

If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.

(James 1:5)

Let’s prayerfully consider the true nature of forgiveness.

 

[spockrates]

No, not at all - paying the debt is penance - this is an example again of the difference between personal forgiveness and Sacramental absolution. When the penance is not performed would you not say that this is a separate sin? Also remember an “eye for an eye.” This is not an OT call for a death penalty but rather a social justice equalizing of punishment. Just some thoughts being thrown out here that I feel are relevant although I feel we are straying very close to what got this thread closed last time.

Yes, I see what you mean, Joan. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, and a life for a life seems only right! Justice demands the sinner’s debt be paid in full!



Still, I think of how Jesus taught us to pray:

“Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.”

(And I use the word debts, in lieu of trespasses, because the words are synonymous, and many a scholarly translation of Sacred Scripture puts Jesus’ prayer this way.)

I wonder about the meaning of this prayer. It seems to me He is telling us that we should forgive the debts for the sins (or the penalty for the sins) of those who sin against us in a way not unlike the way God Himself forgives our debts (or the penalty for our sins). So please tell me, Joan: Exactly how does God forgive our debts?

 

[spockrates]

We must forgive; at the very least, for the love of God.

I think of St. Luke 23:34
And Jesus said: Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do

And, consider the Our Father, taught by Jesus, True man, True God:
…and forgive us of our trespasses as we forgive those that trespass against us…

And by the parable Jesus gave: the unforgiving servant

Love is a choice of will.

Thanks Fictilis, and welcome to the dialog!



Yes, more than one person has said that love is a choice of the will. They have said that forgiveness is a kind of love, which is also an act of the will, and that it is not an emotion. However I don’t understand something. When I ask those who confidently say this to explain what else forgiveness is, they say it is to cease to be angry at others. So it seems to me that forgiveness is BOTH an act of the will and an emotion, for feeling compassion for someone is an emotion. Don’t you agree?

 

[spockrates]

Sorry to take so long to respond to this; had weekend visitors … and I’ve also been struggling to form a response.

Clearly we are in agreement over definitions 1-3 and 5 (forgiveness without exception is not called for). Regarding 4, this one seems to be more about what is beneficial to the offended party than to the offender. That is, putting away anger and resentment is perhaps the best approach for the person who has been hurt to heal and move on. If that is in fact true then forgiveness, since in this case it is about helping the person who actually deserves the help, should be granted.

Separating out the different meanings of forgive helped clarify the problem - nice job.

Ender

Thanks for the compliment, Ender! However I think it is undeserved. Like Socrates, I’d say that my wisdom is not my own, but has been poured into my ears like water from a vase, and I’m embarrassed to admit that I’ve forgotten who gave me the drink of wisdom!

I’m glad to see that you see what I see, and this wisdom will forever help us both have a fuller view of the full beauty and complexity of forgiveness. For as Mother Teressa of Calcutta once wisely said:

Once you see truth, you can’t unsee it!

With this in view, can you now visualize the difficulty I’m having in discussing this with some of the prominent and thoughtful people in this discussion thread? Take Joan, for example: If you read through all of her posts, you’ll see that she does an excellent job of defending the truth that forgiveness is what definition (4) says it is: It is ceasing to feel angry, or feeling compassion for the one forgiven.

Now if you were to engage her in the conversation without first considering the definitions of the word forgive, you’d have a Hell of a time! For when you would say the word forgive, she’d be thinking a fruit of a different kind. You’d be thinking apples, and she’d be thinking oranges, and you’d wonder why neither of you could see eye to eye! But now that your eyes are opened, you’ll know she is talking definition (4), you can begin to see the truth from her point of view. It’s not the whole truth, mind you, but it is nothing but the partial truth about the true nature of forgiveness.

Seeing the truth through her eyes, however is extremely helpful in understanding Jesus. For He tells you and me this:

“But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.”

(Matthew 6:15)

With God’s help, all of us (I believe) can forgive everyone, regardless of what they’ve done and continue to do. We can, if we forgive them at least in the sense of definition (4).

for·give
 
[fer-giv] verb, -gave, -giv·en, -giv·ing.
–verb (used with object)

1. to grant pardon for or remission of (an offense, debt, etc.); absolve.
2. to give up all claim on account of; remit (a debt, obligation, etc.).
3. to grant pardon to (a person).
4. to cease to feel resentment against: to forgive one’s enemies.
5. to cancel an indebtedness or liability of: to forgive the interest owed on a loan.

dictionary.reference.com/browse/forgive

The more difficult thing for you or me to see is how to forgive in the sense of definitions (1), (2), or (3). Don’t you agree?

 

[spockrates]

The point I am trying to make is that the forgiveness that pertains to each person can be different, but that does not mean the different forms contradict each other.
Jesus forgives sin unconditionally to all persons whom He knows. Jesus knows those who have been given the Grace of God through the Holy Spirit. If you reject the Grace of the Holy Spirit, you have placed a condition on yourself to not have access to Jesus so you can be forgiven in the first place. It’s a case of the Trinity having different functions, not different opinions.

I’m learning much as well. I pray God will help me grow in my faith and increase it all the days of my life. My prayer is for you also and all who read this thread.

I think your speaking style is confusing me Styl, but the fault is not yours; it’s mine! For when you use the word unconditional or conditional, you must mean something different than what I’m thinking the words mean. Please help me out. I’ll explain what the word conditional means to me, and you please tell me what it means to you. When I say the word conditional, I’m thinking of requiring conditions. So when I say that God the Father conditionally forgives, I’m thinking that He often requires some conditions before He forgives.

For example, let’s say I commit a mortal sin. To be forgiven by God the Father, under normal circumstances, I’d have to meet these conditions:

1. 
   *]confess my sin to a priest
   *]do the penance for my sin that the prest prescribes
   *]repent of my sin by trying to not do it again
   
   This is why I think God the Father’s forgiveness is usually (though not always) conditional. Please tell me what conditional means to you so I can see why you think His forgiveness is unconditional.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

I believe that the Love of God, the Trinity and the forgiveness of sins all hang and depend on the greatest commandments.

The love of God.

God the Father loves all that he is, with all his heart, souls, mind and strength.
God the Father loves each and every one of us as he loves himself.

The Trinity, and how Christ is one with the Father.

Jesus loves God the Father with all his heart, soul, mind, and strength.
Jesus loves each and every one of us as he loves himself.

God the Father loves God the Son with all his heart, soul, mind, and strength.
The Father loves each and every one of us as he loves himself.

The Spirit.

Can the spirit be the power of love that comes from the perfection of the greatest commandments.
**** 1 Samuel 18****

**** Jonathan became one in spirit with David, and he loved him as himself ****

The forgiveness of sins

****In order to love someone as you love yourself, you must forgive anything that stands in the way of you living by the greatest commandments. ****

Blessings

Eric

 

[spockrates]

I believe that the Love of God, the Trinity and the forgiveness of sins all hang and depend on the greatest commandments.

The love of God.

God the Father loves all that he is, with all his heart, souls, mind and strength.
God the Father loves each and every one of us as he loves himself.

The Trinity, and how Christ is one with the Father.

Jesus loves God the Father with all his heart, soul, mind, and strength.
Jesus loves each and every one of us as he loves himself.

God the Father loves God the Son with all his heart, soul, mind, and strength.
The Father loves each and every one of us as he loves himself.

The Spirit.

Can the spirit be the power of love that comes from the perfection of the greatest commandments.
**** 1 Samuel 18****

**** Jonathan became one in spirit with David, and he loved him as himself ****

The forgiveness of sins

****In order to love someone as you love yourself, you must forgive anything that stands in the way of you living by the greatest commandments. ****

Blessings

Eric

Sounds right to me, Eric!



I’m also reminded of Jesus’ last prayer with His disciples before His crucifixion:

“Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one.”

(John 17:11)

And before this prayer He taught them:

“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

(John 13:34-35)

Forgiveness, I’m thinking, is a kind of love. (One might say that all forgiveness is love, but not all love is forgiveness. For Jesus loves the Father without any need to forgive Him.) I’m sure you agree that forgiveness is a category of love.

So please tell me Eric: Since we are to love one another as (that is, in the same way) that Jesus loves us, and since forgiveness is a type of love, then doesn’t this mean that we are to forgive one another in the same way that Jesus forgives us?

 

[FrankOfBoston]

Thanks, Spockrates.

If a better translation of the Lord’s Prayer uses the word ‘debts’ instead of ‘trespasses’, this seems to yield more insight, because I know that my debt to Him (all of my sin plus His suffering, death and His thoughtfulness in creating little ol’ me, just for starters) is profoundly greater and deeper than any debt anyone owes me. Therefore, if I can just remember this, especially when I would otherwise indulge a little self-righteous indignation about something, it could be a real game changer. But then, avoiding the pitfalls of my own habitual, reflexive thinking, and all the trouble it can lead to, this is largely what it’s all about, though not completely. It sounds as easy as it does simple, as if the practice of the presence of God were as common as breathing which, unfortunately, it isn’t.

As for forgiving a debt, and liking it, this is a part of the question that I’ve been wrestling with for years, but it’s starting to make sense: as with any other act of love, freely taken, whether I enjoy it or not is my problem, not the other guy’s. I can offer up this little bit of suffering as well as any other and, of course, prayer.

Thanks,

FOB

 

[spockrates]

Thanks, Spockrates.

If a better translation of the Lord’s Prayer uses the word ‘debts’ instead of ‘trespasses’, this seems to yield more insight, because I know that my debt to Him (all of my sin plus His suffering, death and His thoughtfulness in creating little ol’ me, just for starters) is profoundly greater and deeper than any debt anyone owes me. Therefore, if I can just remember this, especially when I would otherwise indulge a little self-righteous indignation about something, it could be a real game changer. But then, avoiding the pitfalls of my own habitual, reflexive thinking, and all the trouble it can lead to, this is largely what it’s all about, though not completely. It sounds as easy as it does simple, as if the practice of the presence of God were as common as breathing which, unfortunately, it isn’t.

As for forgiving a debt, and liking it, this is a part of the question that I’ve been wrestling with for years, but it’s starting to make sense: as with any other act of love, freely taken, whether I enjoy it or not is my problem, not the other guy’s. I can offer up this little bit of suffering as well as any other and, of course, prayer.

Thanks,

FOB

You’re in good company, FOB–or perhaps bad company, depending on one’s point of view!



I struggle with forgiving, too. Personally, I think I need help to forgive. Help from others, like yourself (who are going through what I’m going through) and like Joan, Styl, Eric and other thoughtful people (who help me think forgiving through). Also I need help from God. I need wisdom from Him to know how to forgive. Without that, I’m a slave to unforgiveness.

Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

(John 8:31-32)

And I need empowerment from Him to do what I then know is true, for as Jesus also said:

“I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing."

(John 15:5)

I believe you are absolutely right in suggesting prayer is the key to being set free to forgive.

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

I think your speaking style is confusing me Styl, but the fault is not yours; it’s mine!

I’ll share in the blame on that one. I’m not always the clearest in my message. I know what’s in my head, and language is a tricky thing.

spockrates:

…When I say the word conditional, I’m thinking of requiring conditions. So when I say that God the Father conditionally forgives,…

I don’t think I ever said that the Father’s forgiveness wasn’t conditional. As a matter of fact, I believe in the condition that the only way you can be forgiven is through Jesus Christ. The point I have been trying to convey is that Jesus forgives unconditionally those whom He knows. I suppose you could make the argument that the condition placed on the situation is that the condition that must be met for Jesus to intercede on our behalf is that He must know us. Given those conditions, it appears that the word unconditional itself would be an illogical word and couldn’t really apply to any situation ever whether you’re talking about God or anything else for that matter.

It’s kind of like the Rush song Tom Sawyer when the lyrics say…

***He knows changes aren’t permanent, ***
But change is.