To forgive, or not to forgive?

[spockrates]

Why is it so critical as Christians that we understand God as three persons in one God? You seem to have created a scenario that the three persons are irrelevant. Don’t you accept the premise that each person has a different function? You seem to be implying that each function is ultimately done by all.

Stylter:

Please forgive me for not answering the second question adequately. My answer is that you are quite right.



The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit can, and sometimes do, take on different rolls. That is, they do, so long as they don’t contradict or disagree with each another. An example would be their rolls during Jesus’ passion: The Father’s roll was to sacrifice His Son for you and me. The Son’s roll was to accept this sacrifice of Himself for you and me. The Holy Spirit’s roll might have been to influence others in bringing this sacrifice to fruition, by (for example) giving the Jewish High Priest the message that God would sacrifice someone to save the Jewish people.

Here we see different rolls, but the same goal. That’s the key, I think that unlocks the door to understanding this. They each have the same purpose in mind–the sacrificial death and resurrection of the Lamb of God who took away the sins of the world.

Now maybe I’m misunderstanding, but I’m thinking that if the Son of God *always *forgives unconditionally, and the Father God does *not *always forgive (for He forgives only conditionally, and not all meet the conditions for Him to forgive) then the two of them have different rolls AND different goals. The goal of the Son would be to forgive everyone. The goal of the Father would be to NOT forgive everyone. The Son, therefore would contradict and disagree with the Father. For the Father would decide that some should not be forgiven, and the Son would persistently not agree, and forgive them anyway! I don’t see, then how they could be one in purpose, if indeed they did not always see eye-to-eye when it comes to forgiving. I simply don’t understand how these words of the prayer of the Son could actually be true:

“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me."

(John 17:20-23)

For these reasons, I’m thinking that (when the Father forgives conditionally) the Son must forgive conditionally, too. Their different rolls must *never *override their one and the same goal–which is to be one in understanding and purpose the way they want you and I to be one in understanding and purpose. That’s one reason why I’m engaging in this dialog. See what I mean, my friend?

 

[spockrates]

Living in the limelight, the universal dream
For those who wish to see

Those who wish to be
Must put aside the alienation
Get on with the fascination
The real relation, the underlying theme
The real relation, the underlying theme

–Rush (Limelight)

Isn’t the real relation (at least in the case of the relationships between the Father and Son and you and I) being one in purpose with the underlying theme of love (and of one aspect of love, which is forgiveness)?

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

…Why should I imitate the Son but never imitate the Father?

We can only know the Father through the Son, therefore we can only imitate the Son. Unless you’re thinking that we can imitate the Father because of what the Son tells us of the Father? I’m wondering if there is a difference between knowing someone and imitating someone? I’m thinking that as Christians, we imitate Christ.

All things have been handed over to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son wishes to reveal him. (Matthew 11:27)

spockrates:

Not sure I understand. Are you saying this?

Forgiving someone = praying for someone

What I’m saying is that we can be forgiven when we make ourselves available to be forgiven. When we make ourselves available to be forgiven, we will in fact be forgiven unconditionally.

spockrates:

I’m thinking that

unconditional = arbitrary

And I’m thinking that

forgiving someone = pardoning someone

I’m think that

unconditional = limitless

forgiving someone = pardoning someone

spockrates:

…Unconditional mercy, on the other hand, is not a detriment, but a virtue. God can unconditionally be merciful (or lenient) to all. Regardless of how wicked they are, God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit can all treat those who do wrong better than they deserve to be treated. Mercy, then can be unconditional, without God sacrificing the virtue of justice, but I hope you can appreciate why I don’t yet understand how unconditional forgiveness can be just.

Perhaps unconditional mercy is a better description than unconditional forgiveness. Having said that, I now find myself wondering how forgiveness and mercy do not necessarily go hand and hand. Could you explain your thoughts on this?

spockrates:

…Their different rolls must *never *override their one and the same goal–which is to be one in understanding and purpose the way they want you and I to be one in understanding and purpose. That’s one reason why I’m engaging in this dialog. See what I mean, my friend?

There would be no overriding though because the situation never arises. Let me set up potential scenarios:

Scenario #1: Person “A” is a sinner. He knows Jesus through the working of the Holy Spirit. Jesus forgives everyone He knows. Jesus advocates on behalf of person “A”. The Father forgives person “A”.

Scenario #2: Person “B” is a sinner. He doesn’t know Jesus because he blasphemed against the Holy Spirit. Person B advocates for himself. The Father does not forgive person “B”.

spockrates:

Isn’t the real relation (at least in the case of the relationships between the Father and Son and you and I) being one in purpose with the underlying theme of love (and of one aspect of love, which is forgiveness)?

Yes. Perhaps I’m confusing unconditional love with unconditional forgiveness. Can it be an act of love to withhold forgiveness? Perhaps not from the one having forgiveness withheld. However, isn’t love mutual?

I’ve found a couple articles online from two different Catholic authors that you may want to check out. One author takes an unconditional forgiveness approach while the other takes a conditonal love approach. Let me know what you think of them my friend.

Mark Shea (Unconditional forgiveness)
mark-shea.com/forgive2.html

Jimmy Akin (Conditional forgiveness)
catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0309bt.asp

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

God love you too, Nun! Please forgive me, but I still don’t understand. You say that forgive means to pardon, and that you and I should pardon everyone, without exception. You also agree that yes, pardoning means to release a person from liability (or responsibility or penalty) for her sin. You then say that no, you would NOT release the person in the example from the liability (or responsibility or penalty) for her sin. But what I don’t comprehend is this: If you don’t release her from the liability (or responsibility or penalty) for her sin, then how can you say you have pardoned (or forgiven) her? To me it seems a contradiction, but perhaps I’m blind to the truth you see? If so, please open my eyes. In what way, exactly would you release her from the deserved liability, responsibility and penalty for her sinful actions?

Simple: pardon everyone, without exception and release a person from liability (or responsibility or penalty) for his sins to yourself. Can you pardon someone for the sins he did to somebody else? Can you pardon someone for the sins he did to God? Can you pardon someone for the sins he did to society? No, because you are not their representative.

And yet, as I said, each sin against you affects not just you but other people, God, society, and the sinner himself. Therefore, pardon the sinner for his offense against you, and leave the pardoning of the effects of that sin to the others to those others.



God love you.

 

[spockrates]

+JMJ+

Simple: pardon everyone, without exception and release a person from liability (or responsibility or penalty) for his sins to yourself. Can you pardon someone for the sins he did to somebody else? Can you pardon someone for the sins he did to God? Can you pardon someone for the sins he did to society? No, because you are not their representative.

And yet, as I said, each sin against you affects not just you but other people, God, society, and the sinner himself. Therefore, pardon the sinner for his offense against you, and leave the pardoning of the effects of that sin to the others to those others.



God love you.

Thanks for replying, Nun.



And sorry for not replying until now. I was on a family vacation.

Yeah, I agree that you and I cannot pardon sins committed against God, unless (of course) you are a priest. Which raises the question of how a priest forgives (or pardons) others who have committed no sins against he himself. Maybe we should address that question later.

The more important question for me personally is the one you have NOT answered: How exactly do you pardon someone? What do you do that shows the person you have forgiven is pardoned? If you have already had the police arrest the drunk driver, and have already pressed charges against her, and have already hired a lawyer to counter sue her, what way of pardoning is left you?



Moreover, it seems to me that not just knowing how to pardon (but even knowing when to pardon) is not as simple as it seems! For our current way of understanding when to forgive goes something like this:

1. 
   *]One must pardon everyone for every sin committed against herself
   *]Every sin committed against herself is also a sin committed against society, and others
   *]One must never pardon sins committed against society, or others
   
   Therefore, one is damned if she does and damned if she doesn’t pardon!
   
   
   
   For if she *does *pardon sins against herself, she is also doing what she must *never *do–she is pardoning sins against society and others. If she does *not *pardon sins against society and others, she is also doing what she must *never *do–she is refusing to pardon sins also committed against herself.
   
   But I don’t think this paradox should paralyze us and keep us from pardoning anyone. It seems to me that we just need to modify our understanding of when to forgive a little. If we are not to sin when we pardon someone, then one of these two possibilities must be true:
   
   a. It is not a sin to pardon those who sin against society and others
   
   or
   
   b. Not every sin committed against oneself is also a sin committed against society and others
   
   Which do you choose, or do you have an alternative possibility I don’t yet see?
   
   

 

[spockrates]

We can only know the Father through the Son, therefore we can only imitate the Son. Unless you’re thinking that we can imitate the Father because of what the Son tells us of the Father? I’m wondering if there is a difference between knowing someone and imitating someone? I’m thinking that as Christians, we imitate Christ.

All things have been handed over to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son wishes to reveal him. (Matthew 11:27)

Wow! Excellent thoughts, my friend!



Thanks for helping me think this through. Also, please forgive me for not responding until now, as I was on vacation with my family. I took my son, his friend, my wife and her friend to an off-Broadway play.

I agree that we cannot possibly know God unless He reveals Himself, as Isaiah said:

Truly you are a God who hides himself, O God and Savior of Israel.

(Isaiah 45:15)

I agree that God must unhide Himself for us to even know Him–much less imitate Him. But imitate Him we must, if we are to take Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount seriously. For there He commanded you and me:

“Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

(Matthew 5:48)

I’d say such a command was nonsense, if anyone other than the Son of God Himself said it–but said it He did! We may disagree with Catholic Thomists who say moral perfection is possible this side of eternity, and cling to the idiom that no one is perfect. However there is no denying that Jesus is commanding us to not just be as perfect as humanly possible–but as perfect as God the Father is perfect! And I don’t see how it is possible to be as perfect as God the Father without trying to imitate Him. Do you?

Moreover I agree with you that imitating the Father is not possible without knowing Him, and I think you are correct that Jesus is the one who reveals the Father to us. And I have an awesome and shocking idea–one I’d like to bounce off you, for I can hardly believe my own opinion: Jesus reveals the Father to us not just by what He says about Him, but by who He is–for He is the man who perfectly imitated the Father. What gives me this idea? Jesus’ own words:

7 [Jesus said,] "If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?"

(John 14)

Now I’m not advocating Modalism by saying that there is one God who is one person (or takes one one mode) at a time. I don’t believe Jesus is teaching that heresy. However I am thinking that He is saying that He is so much like the Father, and so perfectly imitates the Father, that imitating Him IS imitating the Father. What are you thinking?

 

[spockrates]

… What I’m saying is that we can be forgiven when we make ourselves available to be forgiven. When we make ourselves available to be forgiven, we will in fact be forgiven unconditionally.

I agree, and I’m thinking that repenting of one’s sin is one way to make one available. Refusing to repent, and confess, and do penance is one way to keep oneself unavailable. Don’t you think?

I’m think that

unconditional = limitless

forgiving someone = pardoning someone

Then I suppose that using the word unconditional confuses the hearer into thinking that you are advocating forgiving without requiring the conditions of repentance, confession, or penance. Perhaps it would be better to avoid the misunderstanding and say forgiveness should be without limits, rather than without conditions?

Perhaps unconditional mercy is a better description than unconditional forgiveness. Having said that, I now find myself wondering how forgiveness and mercy do not necessarily go hand and hand. Could you explain your thoughts on this?

I’d say that Forgiveness and Mercy are like twin sisters, though they are not identical twins. The desire for every Catholic is that God gives them both. However, should one be denied both, he would be grateful to have one, which is Mercy. Please let me briefly explain: One of the definitions of Forgiveness is to pardon someone, and this is what God does for those who enter Heaven. One of the definitions of Mercy is to be lenient, which is what God does for those who enter Heaven, and what (in my current opinion) God does to reduce the suffering of those who enter Purgatory, or perhaps even Hell. Therefore, Divine Mercy is always found everywhere–it exists in both time and eternity, on earth and in Heaven, Purgatory and Hell, as well. Forgiveness, however can exist only where one is forgiven (or pardoned). So Forgiveness cannot possibly follow the damned to eternal punishment, but her merciful sister Mercy can, lessoning the suffering of those in eternal torment, or regret, or both. (This, by the way, is the answer to the skeptic who scoffs at the idea of God loving those in Hell: Mercy is a kind of limited Love, and she loves even the damned.)

There would be no overriding though because the situation never arises. Let me set up potential scenarios:

Scenario #1: Person “A” is a sinner. He knows Jesus through the working of the Holy Spirit. Jesus forgives everyone He knows. Jesus advocates on behalf of person “A”. The Father forgives person “A”.

Scenario #2: Person “B” is a sinner. He doesn’t know Jesus because he blasphemed against the Holy Spirit. Person B advocates for himself. The Father does not forgive person “B”.

Yes. Perhaps I’m confusing unconditional love with unconditional forgiveness. Can it be an act of love to withhold forgiveness? Perhaps not from the one having forgiveness withheld. However, isn’t love mutual?

There can, if such an unforgiving love is Mercy.

I’ve found a couple articles online from two different Catholic authors that you may want to check out. One author takes an unconditional forgiveness approach while the other takes a conditonal love approach. Let me know what you think of them my friend.

Mark Shea (Unconditional forgiveness)
mark-shea.com/forgive2.html

Jimmy Akin (Conditional forgiveness)
catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0309bt.asp

I’ve listened to Jimmy on the radio and find him as good a teacher as any Evangelical of Calvary Chapel teacher. Thanks for the link!

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect(Matthew 5:48)

I’d say such a command was nonsense, if anyone other than the Son of God Himself said it–but said it He did! We may disagree with Catholic Thomists who say moral perfection is possible this side of eternity, and cling to the idiom that no one is perfect. However there is no denying that Jesus is commanding us to not just be as perfect as humanly possible–but as perfect as God the Father is perfect! And I don’t see how it is possible to be as perfect as God the Father without trying to imitate Him. Do you?

It’s a challenging Scripture to say the least.

spockrates:

7 [Jesus said,] "If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?" (John 14)

spockrates:

Now I’m not advocating Modalism by saying that there is one God who is one person (or takes one one mode) at a time. I don’t believe Jesus is teaching that heresy. However I am thinking that He is saying that He is so much like the Father, and so perfectly imitates the Father, that imitating Him IS imitating the Father. What are you thinking?

I wish Jesus would have used the word ‘imitate’ rather than ‘know’ in Scripture. It would make my thoughts a little easier.

To know:
1
*a (1) : to perceive directly : have direct cognition of (2) : to have understanding of <importance of know*ing oneself> (3) : to recognize the nature of : discern *b *(1) : to recognize as being the same as something previously known (2) : to be acquainted or familiar with (3) : to have experience of

To imitate:
1
: to follow as a pattern, model, or example

spockrates:

I agree, and I’m thinking that repenting of one’s sin is one way to make one available. Refusing to repent, and confess, and do penance is one way to keep oneself unavailable. Don’t you think?

Agreed.
spockates:

Then I suppose that using the word unconditional confuses the hearer into thinking that you are advocating forgiving without requiring the conditions of repentance, confession, or penance. Perhaps it would be better to avoid the misunderstanding and say forgiveness should be without limits, rather than without conditions?

Unfortunately, using ‘limitless’ as the term could cause misunderstanding as well.

spockrates:

…Mercy is a kind of limited Love, and she loves even the damned…

I’m not sure if you are familiar with the writings of CS Lewis, but I believe Lewis believed that those who were in hell - the fact that they are allowed to even exist is a merciful act of God. I can’t recall where I read that, but if you read The Great Divorce by him, this imagery is apparent.

 

[spockrates]

It’s a challenging Scripture to say the least.

I wish Jesus would have used the word ‘imitate’ rather than ‘know’ in Scripture. It would make my thoughts a little easier.

To know:
1
*a (1) : to perceive directly : have direct cognition of (2) : to have understanding of <importance of know*ing oneself> (3) : to recognize the nature of : discern *b *(1) : to recognize as being the same as something previously known (2) : to be acquainted or familiar with (3) : to have experience of

To imitate:
1
: to follow as a pattern, model, or example

Agreed.

Unfortunately, using ‘limitless’ as the term could cause misunderstanding as well.

I’m not sure if you are familiar with the writings of CS Lewis, but I believe Lewis believed that those who were in hell - the fact that they are allowed to even exist is a merciful act of God. I can’t recall where I read that, but if you read The Great Divorce by him, this imagery is apparent.

Thanks for the book suggestion. I enjoyed Lewis’ Mere Christianity and Skrewtape Letters. I also read all of the books of the Chronicles of Narnia to my sons when they were young.



Yes, I agree that it is possible to know someone without imitating that someone. However, I’m also thinking that it is impossible to be as perfect as someone is without either (1) imitating that person, or (2) doing it better than that person. So when it comes to forgiving as perfectly as the Father forgives, what do you think Jesus wants us to do? Is He asking us to imitate the Father, or to forgive better than the Father forgives?

 

[Holly3278]

We should always forgive everyone their sins against us.

Our Father who art in Heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us and lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil. Amen.

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

…I also read all of the books of the Chronicles of Narnia to my sons when they were young.

I own the Narnia series myself and have read it to my daughters.

spockrates:

Yes, I agree that it is possible to know someone without imitating that someone. However, I’m also thinking that it is impossible to be as perfect as someone is without either (1) imitating that person, or (2) doing it better than that person.

Regarding point (1), someone can achieve a perfect game in baseball without imitating the person who accomplished the feat before him. Firstly, the pitching style of each pitcher could be entirely different. Secondly, the batters he faces could be entirely different. Different circumstances providing the same result: perfection. Regarding point (2), using baseball analogy again, one could say that a pitcher who struck out all 27 batters in a perfect game did it better than the guy who threw only 27 pitches in a perfect game, but who’s to say the guy that did it in less pitches didn’t do it better?

spockrates:

So when it comes to forgiving as perfectly as the Father forgives, what do you think Jesus wants us to do? Is He asking us to imitate the Father, or to forgive better than the Father forgives?

Jesus wants us to be perfect as the Father is perfect. What is the context of this?:

"You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil. When someone strikes you on (your) right cheek, turn the other one to him as well. If anyone wants to go to law with you over your tunic, hand him your cloak as well. Should anyone press you into service for one mile, go with him for two miles. Give to the one who asks of you, and do not turn your back on one who wants to borrow. "You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what recompense will you have? Do not the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brothers only, what is unusual about that? Do not the pagans do the same? So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect. (Matthew 5:38-48)

My thinking:

• Someone who is evil is unforgiving. I should offer no resistance to such a person.
• Someone hits me, which is an unforgiving action. I should not hit that person and offer to be hit again.
• Someone goes to the law for something against me, which is an unforgiving action. I should give him my cloak to boot.
• Someone forces me to do labor, which is also unforgiving - I should offer to go another mile.
• Love my enemies - those who do not forgive me!
• Pray for those who persecute me - those who do not forgive me!

Then there’s the kicker:

• If I only do these types of things for people I already love and care about, no big deal! But if I do these types of things for those who actually hate me - now that’s perfection!

Jesus did all of this perfectly; His passion is a clear example (imitation).

Now I see the dilemma. Why didn’t Jesus say ‘Be perfect just as I am perfect’?

Imagine for a moment that you are at the judgement before God. Would you be able to imitate Christ by forgiving everyone who has ever wronged you - not only forgive them, but do more than they demand? This is what perfection is to the Father correct? But if that is the case, wouldn’t it hold true that the Father by default offers no resistance to Judas for the evil he did to his Only begotten Son.

That is actually a fact - the Father didn’t hold Judas back and allowed His Son Jesus to be crucified.

It all seems a bit morbid doesn’t it?

 

[spockrates]

We should always forgive everyone their sins against us.

Our Father who art in Heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us and lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil. Amen.

Thanks Holly. Are you drive-by posting, or would you like to park your car, come on inside, and talk awhile? I’m thinking it’s a topic worthy of discussion! I mean, we pray these words so often, but how much time do we take to actually contemplate what they really mean?

 

[spockrates]

I own the Narnia series myself and have read it to my daughters.

Did you take them to see the motion pictures?



Sorry for taking so long to respond. I was not feeling well.

 

[spockrates]

… Regarding point (1), someone can achieve a perfect game in baseball without imitating the person who accomplished the feat before him. Firstly, the pitching style of each pitcher could be entirely different. Secondly, the batters he faces could be entirely different. Different circumstances providing the same result: perfection. Regarding point (2), using baseball analogy again, one could say that a pitcher who struck out all 27 batters in a perfect game did it better than the guy who threw only 27 pitches in a perfect game, but who’s to say the guy that did it in less pitches didn’t do it better?

God knows I love thinking about these things!



I wonder why so few do?



Yes, I agree. Now let’s use the analogy: Let’s say we’re watching a baseball game where they use a designated batter in place of the pitcher. We might then say this:

As the pitcher’s job in a game of baseball differs from the designated batter’s, so too our job in forgiving differs from God the Father’s.

That is, forgiving the way the Father forgives is not in our job descriptions! Is this the point we are now considering?

Jesus wants us to be perfect as the Father is perfect. What is the context of this?:

"You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil. When someone strikes you on (your) right cheek, turn the other one to him as well. If anyone wants to go to law with you over your tunic, hand him your cloak as well. Should anyone press you into service for one mile, go with him for two miles. Give to the one who asks of you, and do not turn your back on one who wants to borrow. "You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what recompense will you have? Do not the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brothers only, what is unusual about that? Do not the pagans do the same? So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect. (Matthew 5:38-48)

My thinking:

• Someone who is evil is unforgiving. I should offer no resistance to such a person.
• Someone hits me, which is an unforgiving action. I should not hit that person and offer to be hit again.
• Someone goes to the law for something against me, which is an unforgiving action. I should give him my cloak to boot.
• Someone forces me to do labor, which is also unforgiving - I should offer to go another mile.
• Love my enemies - those who do not forgive me!
• Pray for those who persecute me - those who do not forgive me!

Then there’s the kicker:

• If I only do these types of things for people I already love and care about, no big deal! But if I do these types of things for those who actually hate me - now that’s perfection!

Jesus did all of this perfectly; His passion is a clear example (imitation).

Yes, but HOW do we love our enemies? Do we love them in every way BUT forgiving them? or do we love them completely by forgiving them, too? If the former, then Jesus seems to be saying that we are to be as perfect as the Father in some ways, but not in all ways possible. If the later, then Jesus is saying we are to be as perfect as the Father in the way He forgives, which (we agreed) is to forgive only conditionally (or by requiring conditions be met by the forgiven before they can be forgiven. So you must be interpreting Jesus to be saying the former, not the later. Right?

 

[spockrates]

Now I see the dilemma. Why didn’t Jesus say ‘Be perfect just as I am perfect’?

Imagine for a moment that you are at the judgement before God. Would you be able to imitate Christ by forgiving everyone who has ever wronged you - not only forgive them, but do more than they demand? This is what perfection is to the Father correct? But if that is the case, wouldn’t it hold true that the Father by default offers no resistance to Judas for the evil he did to his Only begotten Son.

That is actually a fact - the Father didn’t hold Judas back and allowed His Son Jesus to be crucified.

It all seems a bit morbid doesn’t it?

Morbid? Perhaps, but I suppose God kindly laughs! I suppose He is chuckling at our struggling with understanding Him the way you or I used to chuckle when our kids asked us questions the answers to which we knew they’d never comprehend. But He wants us to keep asking and keep striving to understand. Don’t you think?

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.

(Philippians 4:8)



Regarding imitating Christ. Let’s say our dialog brings us to the surprising conclusion that we are to imitate Christ in the way He forgives but not imitate the Father in the way He forgives. Won’t we still be between a rock and a hard place when it comes to defending the idea that we are to forgive without requiring the forgiven meet any conditions? Please let me explain. Jesus said:

Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son…

(John 5:22)

I’m thinking that judgment is the opposite of the kind of forgiving we are thinking Jesus used in the example He set. Aren’t you? I mean, if He forgives everyone the way we think He did, then how could it be possible to judge? Wouldn’t everyone be completely forgiven, and Hell be empty? Worse yet, wouldn’t the Son of God be unjust in His arbitrarily letting the most wicked of mortal sinners off scott free?

BUT if Jesus forgives on the Day of Judgment the same way we currently believe the Father forgives, then His judgment would be just, and only those who deserve to be let off will be forgiven, and all would be right in Heaven and in the World. I think this true, don’t you?

The only other possibilities I see are these: Firstly, when on earth, Jesus forgave differently from the Father, but in Heaven He will forgive the same as the Father. So we are to forgive as He forgave, but not as the way He will forgive on Judgment Day. Secondly, when Saint Paul the Apostle wrote that we are to imitate Christ, He was speaking of imitating Him in every way EXCEPT the way He will forgive. So we are to forgive, but never the way God Himselves (grammatical slip intended) forgives.

Which of these two possibilities do you want to seriously consider first? or do you have a third possibility in mind?

 

[spockrates]

BTW, I don’t know if you have been following the news story about the Protestant preacher Harold Camping who predicted Judgment Day would come last Saturday. Guess he is 0 for 2 and might strike out, for he has made a third prediction that it will now come this October! Personally, I’m thankful the Day did not arrive on time, for I don’t yet know how to forgive so that God will forgive me!

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

Did you take them to see the motion pictures?

Yes, all three films.

One of my favorite scenes is when Edmund is first reunited with his family and then he and Aslan go off to the side to talk about Edmund’s betrayal. It is a good example of God’s forgiveness…errr, well Aslan’s…well, you know what I mean.

It also reminded me of the sacrament of Confession and the intimacy that is contained within it.

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

God knows I love thinking about these things! I wonder why so few do?

Each gift of the Holy Spirit is different. I like this one though.

spockrates:

As the pitcher’s job in a game of baseball differs from the designated batter’s, so too our job in forgiving differs from God the Father’s.
That is, forgiving the way the Father forgives is not in our job descriptions! Is this the point we are now considering?

Yes.

spockrates:

Yes, but HOW do we love our enemies? Do we love them in every way BUT forgiving them? or do we love them completely by forgiving them, too? If the former, then Jesus seems to be saying that we are to be as perfect as the Father in some ways, but not in all ways possible. If the later, then Jesus is saying we are to be as perfect as the Father in the way He forgives, which (we agreed) is to forgive only conditionally (or by requiring conditions be met by the forgiven before they can be forgiven. So you must be interpreting Jesus to be saying the former, not the later. Right?

I would characterize the “BUT” as being when it comes to judgement, not when it comes to forgiveness. We can judge a sinner’s actions, but not the sinner him/herself. We can look at an objectively sinful action and say it is wrong, however, we can not judge the person him/herself who made that sinful action. Therefore we love them by forgiving them TO THE EXTENT we can based on our knowledge - which is severely limited because we do not know the state of any soul no matter how good or evil he/she may appear on the outside.

spockrates:

Morbid? Perhaps, but I suppose God kindly laughs! I suppose He is chuckling at our struggling with understanding Him the way you or I used to chuckle when our kids asked us questions the answers to which we knew they’d never comprehend. But He wants us to keep asking and keep striving to understand. Don’t you think?

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things. (Philippians 4:8)

Most certainly.

spockrates:

Regarding imitating Christ. Let’s say our dialog brings us to the surprising conclusion that we are to imitate Christ in the way He forgives but not imitate the Father in the way He forgives. Won’t we still be between a rock and a hard place when it comes to defending the idea that we are to forgive without requiring the forgiven meet any conditions? Please let me explain. Jesus said:
Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son…(John 5:22)

Okay, now you threw a wrench into this whole thing.

spockrates:

I’m thinking that judgment is the opposite of the kind of forgiving we are thinking Jesus used in the example He set. Aren’t you? I mean, if He forgives everyone the way we think He did, then how could it be possible to judge? Wouldn’t everyone be completely forgiven, and Hell be empty? Worse yet, wouldn’t the Son of God be unjust in His arbitrarily letting the most wicked of mortal sinners off scott free?

BUT if Jesus forgives on the Day of Judgment the same way we currently believe the Father forgives, then His judgment would be just, and only those who deserve to be let off will be forgiven, and all would be right in Heaven and in the World. I think this true, don’t you?

Does Jesus forgive differently at different times? I suppose that is true since there are two judgements - the particular judgement and final judgement. They are certainly different forms of judgement - yet the ultimate result will be the same - meaning it’s not like God changes His mind between the two judgements.

spockrates:

The only other possibilities I see are these: Firstly, when on earth, Jesus forgave differently from the Father, but in Heaven He will forgive the same as the Father. So we are to forgive as He forgave, but not as the way He will forgive on Judgment Day. Secondly, when Saint Paul the Apostle wrote that we are to imitate Christ, He was speaking of imitating Him in every way EXCEPT the way He will forgive. So we are to forgive, but never the way God Himselves (grammatical slip intended) forgives.

Which of these two possibilities do you want to seriously consider first? or do you have a third possibility in mind?

I tend to believe Jesus will forgive differently in a sense, but not in reality. Perhaps I view it more of a progression - like steps in the forgiveness process per se.

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

BTW, I don’t know if you have been following the news story about the Protestant preacher Harold Camping who predicted Judgment Day would come last Saturday. Guess he is 0 for 2 and might strike out, for he has made a third prediction that it will now come this October! Personally, I’m thankful the Day did not arrive on time, for I don’t yet know how to forgive so that God will forgive me!

Actually, I read prior to May 21 that the judgement will begin May 21 and conclude in October. The media mis-characterized his position on that one.

We better get moving on understanding this forgiveness thing, we’ve got until October.

 

[spockrates]

Yes, all three films.

One of my favorite scenes is when Edmund is first reunited with his family and then he and Aslan go off to the side to talk about Edmund’s betrayal. It is a good example of God’s forgiveness…errr, well Aslan’s…well, you know what I mean.

It also reminded me of the sacrament of Confession and the intimacy that is contained within it.

Yes, I like that one, too. Trying to remember, but my favorite part of the books was the story of Lucy telling her brother and sister that she visited a forest in the wardrobe. They went to their uncle and told him. He asked if she was the sort who was out of her mind, and they said she was not. He then asked if she was prone to telling lies, and they said she never had before, but her other brother, who said she was making it all up, was the kind who frequently lied. He then, to their surprise, said that, in that case, they should believe her.