To genuflect or not?

[RCCDefender]

That is the exact problem of our society today.
As long as a person “feels good” about the decision, it is the way to go, regardless of truth, moral, or Church teaching.

Many adult Catholics do need to be re-educated. Let’s keep on setting a good example by our words and our deeds. Also pray. People need to hear and see how good Catholics perform their faith, but only the Holy Spirit can change their hearts.

This was the problem at my old parish. We need to pray for these people.

 

[MariaG]

Yes, maybe, but you have to be careful, otherwise you will get kids who will do whatever their authority tells them too even if it’s extremely wrong. For instance, the girl at the McDonalds a couple of years ago that was just doing what her boss told her to do…

This is where I was trying to go…

I either have forgotten that story or never heard it?

And yes, MOST kids will hear the message that I knew you were trying to say/saying about doing the right thing no matter what others do.

I just wanted to warn about the oddball who can throw off the curve. I have one of those and we have to be careful how we phrase things because he can come up with “lessons” that we never intended!

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I would hesitate to take this approach unless all avenues have been exhausted.

An insidious message that could be sent is that one does not have to pay attention to those in authority over us if they are wrong and we are right. This could lead to some serious issues about the authority of the Church as they grow older if internalized the wrong way. Not every child would hear this, but I know at least one of mine would have at that age.

Others of course would hear the message that we need to do the right thing no matter what others do. This is what one of my other children would have “heard” with the same message.

:twocents: Just another opinion for what it worth.

God Bless,
Maria

“An insidious message that could be sent is that one does not have to pay attention to those in authority over us if they are wrong and we are right.”

NO, a very important message!! Your child does NOT need to follow any other persons instruction if it goes against your instruction as her parent. Her response needs to be if instructed to do something you have clearly told her not to do is “you need to call my mom, I have been instructed not to do that!”

 

[LilyM]

I was always taught (by my dad) that genuflecting was only necessary when a tabernacle is present. Though I find no wrong in genuflecting when the tabernacle is not present in the church (when it is in a side chapel), I find it sad that many do not understand the reason for genuflecting…I was at a Protestant funeral for a friend of mine when a fellow Catholic genuflected when entering the pew at that non-denominational church. I was flabergasted to say the least. Because (as I was taught anyway), there is absolutely no reason for genuflecting in a Protestant church (since they don’t believe in the institution of the Eucharist).

I suppose it has never occured to you that being in any Christian place of worship deserves some sign of respect. Jesus said ‘where two or three are gathered in my name I am there in their midst’. If the way Catholics are used to paying respect to the presence of Christ is genuflecting, then it’s not surprising that they reflexively do the same in other churches - some of us have been known to do it instinctively before taking a seat in a movie theatre!

 

[Traditional_Ang]

“An insidious message that could be sent is that one does not have to pay attention to those in authority over us if they are wrong and we are right.”

NO, a very important message!! Your child does NOT need to follow any other persons instruction if it goes against your instruction as her parent. Her response needs to be if instructed to do something you have clearly told her not to do is “you need to call my mom, I have been instructed not to do that!”

Br. Rich:

I tend to agree.

While we want kids to grow up respecting authority, We also want them to respect their parents and (esp. in cases like this where her mother really is right) to see that their parents are right and that people who have lost their faith or who never really had it aren’t.

I might not wait for the pastor and I think I would isntruct the daughter to say as you suggested whenever the teacher intefered.

The parents are the ones who solemnly pledge to God that they will raise the child as a Catholic when they baptize her, not the Principal or the teacher.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Yes, I agree and that is why I have told my daughter to respect this teacher’s ways of bowing for now until I can talk to the pastor, which has been done. He said he will be addressing this in the next school Mass, which is tomorrow.

Nana:

What did the Pastor say? Did he uphold the Traditional Practice of the Church? Or, did he decide that it was easier to “not make waves” and to not have conflict with the Principal and the teacher than to do the right thing for the children?

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[nana3]

Nana:

What did the Pastor say? Did he uphold the Traditional Practice of the Church? Or, did he decide that it was easier to “not make waves” and to not have conflict with the Principal and the teacher than to do the right thing for the children?

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

I Pastor told me that the children need to be genuflecting and that he would be speaking to the second graders and the teacher. They did have School Mass today and the second grader teacher was absent. The person who brought the kids in was the person in charge of them for their First Communion. I watched her and when the first student bowed, she corrected that student and told him to genuflect. She proceeded to do the rest of the kids. Good for her! I probably should have gone to her. I forgot that she was new to this job this year and a very good Catholic. The poor kids are confused as to what is correct.

My daughter was not with the group, but with the choir. I was watching her and I have told her that she needs to genuflect when she enters the church and before sitting. She did not. I asked her why when she got home and she said she was afraid to get in trouble. She has fear towards teacher for her first grade teacher was terrible and would get the kids in trouble for any silly thing. The kids have carried this fear into second grade. They are slowly seeing the difference in the teachers. They are having more fun with this years teacher. I am glad for they are in school and not in the Army. Their first grade teacher demanded perfection, especially in their writings. She is still like this for the current parents of the new first graders are complaining of her being to strict. She is very strict, but was very good in teaching what the Church teaches and if a parent didn’t like hearing it, she didn’t care and told them what they needed to hear.

 

[nana3]

“An insidious message that could be sent is that one does not have to pay attention to those in authority over us if they are wrong and we are right.”

NO, a very important message!! Your child does NOT need to follow any other persons instruction if it goes against your instruction as her parent. Her response needs to be if instructed to do something you have clearly told her not to do is “you need to call my mom, I have been instructed not to do that!”

Thanks Brother, I never thought of it this way and will tell my daughter, if the Pastor doesn’t get to it soon, to genuflect and tell the teacher to call me. The only way it won’t work is if my daughter stays quiet. She is shy and won’t speak up. She is also afraid of teachers.

 

[travellinmike]

I guess I’ll weigh in on this one.

My son is in 2nd grade in a Catholic school in a nearby Parish. I’ve had the opportunity to attend the Friday all school Mass on occassion and am saddened by the lack of teaching of in the area of the traditional actions, devotionals, and customs of our faith and their meanings.

Many kids scurry into the pew without so much as a pause. Some do a quick curtsey type move on their way in. This is done with or without a hurried drawing of a circle in the air in front of them. I’m guessing that they think they are doing the sign of the cross. There are also those (maybe 50%) who do a proper knee to the floor genuflection with reverent consciously performed sign of the cross . So maybe there is hope.

But then again most of them don’t bless themselves with Holy Water when entering and leaving the church either. They don’t do the little cross over their head, lips and heart before the Gospel. They are not made to kneel straight during the Eucharistic Prayers. They have their butts on the seat of the pew or head resting on their criss-crossed arms. Sigh. Is it too much for the teacher to give a quick snap of the fingers, a stern look and gesture to these kids to kneel up right? Remember that good old “Get right! Now! or I’ll know the reason why” glare the nuns had perfected. One snap of those bony fingers and everybody got in line. God bless you Sisters!

There is already general slackness in most congregations and it is going to be made worse if the next generation isn’t instructed on the basics.

The problem at our school is that the woman running the Religions Education Department has only been a Catholic for 5 months. She went through RCIA last year and became Catholic this Easter. So she has 30+ years of Protestantism at the deepest parrts of her subconscious. So I’m sure she won’t be making a big fuss about genuflection, Holy Water, lighting a candle before the Infant of Prague, etc. Probably not much teaching on Purgatory either but that’s another thread.

And it’s not just in Mass.

My son came home today with something he called a worry doll. It’s a little thing maybe an inch and a half big. Given out to the class by his Spanish teacher. She said if they had any worries to tell them to the worry doll and put it under their pillow at night. In the morning their worries would be gone. My God what next. Voodoo dolls, rattlesnakes? We had a homecoming game this evening so I haven’t had time tonight, but you can be sure I’m getting in touch with this Spanish teacher and the principle and the pastor about the teaching of such supersticious nonsense in a Catholic school.

Why wouldn’t they teach the children to pray to the Blessed Virgin Mary, or to their guardian angel, or Patron Saint, or even JC Himself for help in times of trouble?

Worry Doll?!?!? Sheesh.

I could go on and on but it just makes me mad and besides I’ve vented enough for one night.

Mike

 

[MariaG]

“An insidious message that could be sent is that one does not have to pay attention to those in authority over us if they are wrong and we are right.”

NO, a very important message!! Your child does NOT need to follow any other persons instruction if it goes against your instruction as her parent. Her response needs to be if instructed to do something you have clearly told her not to do is “you need to call my mom, I have been instructed not to do that!”

As I said in my post, SOME children will internalize that message in the wrong way, one of the ways that would lead to a defiance of authority. One of mine would have internalized it as a defiance of authority. Another quite differently. Non of mine do I feel would have internalized it in the scenario that you bring up, but your warning is definitely another scenario that must ALSO be considered. It was good of you to bring up another possibility to help parents identify which way their child may react to this kind of situation.

Every child is different and each parent needs to know their own child and know how to best approach this.

Respectfully, there is no one answer fits all children to this issue even among children of the same family.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[dano1972]

I agree. I just spoke to some mother’s while waiting for our daughter’s to get out of choir practice.

As a teacher in a Catholic school, I have to address this. You did the absolute correct thing to bring it to the attention of the teacher, principal and pastor. When parents start talking about things they are not happy about among themselves it often turns into a “rip the school” conversation and is very destructive to the school and the reputation of the teacher and others involved. Please bring your concerns to the people who have authority to do something about it (which you have done) and wait to see what happens. Give the process time to work. There is no need to draw other people in, unless the situation does not change.

 

[nana3]

As a teacher in a Catholic school, I have to address this. You did the absolute correct thing to bring it to the attention of the teacher, principal and pastor. When parents start talking about things they are not happy about among themselves it often turns into a “rip the school” conversation and is very destructive to the school and the reputation of the teacher and others involved. Please bring your concerns to the people who have authority to do something about it (which you have done) and wait to see what happens. Give the process time to work. There is no need to draw other people in, unless the situation does not change.

My daughters second grade teacher told us at a parent conference meeting of the teacher night, that if we had a problem with her for any reason, to please talk to her instead of among each other. This teacher has been pretty good about listening. Can I ask you though, as a teacher, would you get upset at a parent for what I did or not? I don’t seem to be hitting it off with her and I don’t like confrontation at all. I wrote her a letter recently thinking that my daughter was given a test unfairly. She wrote back and proved me wrong. Needless to say, I feel terrible, but did not write a nasty note. I will be including a letter with my daughter’s Friday folder from me to her apologizing. I felt bad for my lack of remembering.

 

[dano1972]

My daughters second grade teacher told us at a parent conference meeting of the teacher night, that if we had a problem with her for any reason, to please talk to her instead of among each other. This teacher has been pretty good about listening. Can I ask you though, as a teacher, would you get upset at a parent for what I did or not? I don’t seem to be hitting it off with her and I don’t like confrontation at all. I wrote her a letter recently thinking that my daughter was given a test unfairly. She wrote back and proved me wrong. Needless to say, I feel terrible, but did not write a nasty note. I will be including a letter with my daughter’s Friday folder from me to her apologizing. I felt bad for my lack of remembering.

It sounds like the teacher wants to address issues that come up - that’s good. I know that as a teacher we are sensitive to criticism from parents - sometimes we feel unfairly criticized and sometimes can get a little wary of parents because of it. I guess the best advice I could give is to choose which issues to bring up to the teacher, don’t challenge every little thing (I’m not saying that you did - just that some parents do this and it makes them less effective when they really have something serious to bring up) and show that you are supporting her as a teacher. The note of apology is a great idea. Be generous in your attitude toward her and approach issues constructively. I think you did the right thing to talk to her and the principal about the genuflecting - hopefully you addressed it with her first. I know I always appreciate it when the parent talks to me first, not the principal first. That shows me that they feel they can talk to me. I always tell parents that we are on the same team - we both want the same thing for the children - we may approach it differently, but when we work together we can come to a good solution.

 

[nana3]

It sounds like the teacher wants to address issues that come up - that’s good. I know that as a teacher we are sensitive to criticism from parents - sometimes we feel unfairly criticized and sometimes can get a little wary of parents because of it. I guess the best advice I could give is to choose which issues to bring up to the teacher, don’t challenge every little thing (I’m not saying that you did - just that some parents do this and it makes them less effective when they really have something serious to bring up) and show that you are supporting her as a teacher. The note of apology is a great idea. Be generous in your attitude toward her and approach issues constructively. I think you did the right thing to talk to her and the principal about the genuflecting - hopefully you addressed it with her first. I know I always appreciate it when the parent talks to me first, not the principal first. That shows me that they feel they can talk to me. I always tell parents that we are on the same team - we both want the same thing for the children - we may approach it differently, but when we work together we can come to a good solution.

Yes, I did approach her first before going to the principal. I did not agree with her answer. I know the principal was defensive for he kept telling me over and over that they are doing the best they can.
As far as the teacher, I just don’t want her to think that I don’t like her. I don’t know her too well yet, but I have heard great things about her. She is already going to have to deal with this and another challenge. Some of the parents are fighting among themselves about the girl’s brownie program in the class. There are two sets of parents wanting to have a Brownie Troop and one group of parents are not acting like Christians and even excluding inviting the other parent’s little girl to their brownie group. When I heard this, I did not put my daughter in this other group, but will stay with the original mom who had the girls first. Now there is division among the moms and this will also divide the girls also. I hope not, but I already see the mom’s being cold to this other mom. I get upset at grow-ups acting like little children, actually the kids don’t act this way. It is sad.
So this teacher is going to be approached soon by these bickering mothers.

 

[RCCDefender]

I either have forgotten that story or never heard it?

And yes, MOST kids will hear the message that I knew you were trying to say/saying about doing the right thing no matter what others do.

I just wanted to warn about the oddball who can throw off the curve. I have one of those and we have to be careful how we phrase things because he can come up with “lessons” that we never intended!

God Bless,
Maria

Sorry I did not respond earlier. I don’t use the computer on the weekends so I did not see it. The story that was on the news last year (I could have sworn there was an old thread on this but I couldn’t find it) was that a girl was working at McDonald’s when her boss (who was a woman) received a phone call from a “Police officer” saying the girl had stolen some money or something like that. The “cop” told the manager she needed to search the girl (who was only 16 or 17) so she did. Eventually the manager was told to strip search the girl, so she did. For some reason the manager had to go out of the office, there was no one to watch the girl, the manager asked a male custodian to watch her but he refused so the manager got her fiance to do it. The fiance was pretty happy to comply with whatever the “cop” on the phone told him to do. The girl somehow managed to eventually get out of there with only an apron to cover herself with. The “cop” was eventually found, he didn’t even live anywhere near there (I think it happened in Arizona or somewhere and the man lived in Florida) and he had done this prank call to other fast food places, too. The manger and her EX-fiance were charged, he went to jail, I can’t remember if she did or not. Later when the girl was asked why she kept complying she said that she was raised to respect her authorities. That story may be extreme, but we recorded it off of Dateline last year and made our ten year old watch it. Sorry to derail this thread I tried to keep this as brief as possible…

 

[serendipity]

I taught CCD for fith grade at a Church last year. When they planned the class mass, the person in charge of the plannign told all the kids not to genuflect, but to bow. I asked “what’s going on here?” The other teachers (this was a combined class initiative) and the director said"it will take too long if they genuflect." I said who cares. This is the only time they have in their life where they can learn the right behavior in church. They told me it didn’t matter. It is my observation that people who aren’t brought up respecting God, rarely learn to respect other people as well.

At this church, no on kneeled or stood for the last part of the Eucharistic prayer, immediately before and after receiving communion. Again, the priority was to get out of there as soon as possible.

I lvoed the kids I taught (and miss them this year) and their families, but that was my first and last year at that parish.

 

[nana3]

I taught CCD for fith grade at a Church last year. When they planned the class mass, the person in charge of the plannign told all the kids not to genuflect, but to bow. I asked “what’s going on here?” The other teachers (this was a combined class initiative) and the director said"it will take too long if they genuflect." I said who cares. This is the only time they have in their life where they can learn the right behavior in church. They told me it didn’t matter. It is my observation that people who aren’t brought up respecting God, rarely learn to respect other people as well.

At this church, no on kneeled or stood for the last part of the Eucharistic prayer, immediately before and after receiving communion. Again, the priority was to get out of there as soon as possible.

I lvoed the kids I taught (and miss them this year) and their families, but that was my first and last year at that parish.

I know what you mean. Years before I got married, I use to take my first niece to school. It was a Catholic school and when they had School Mass, they didn’t genuflect or bow. When I asked why, they said the same thing that it took to long. I went to the principal of the school and complained and again she said it takes to long. There was only one teacher who really wanted her students to do this, but at the same time rush as the principal wants them to, so she had her entire class genuflect together while they were still in the pews. It was not a full genuflect, but she was doing the best she could. I was not a parent, but an aunt, so what I said didn’t matter. My sister did complain though. Here it is almost 17 years later and this school still has not time to teach the students correctly. At least this school my daughter goes to they all, with the exception of the second grade, genuflect properly before going into the pews and before leaving. If only I can get the the second graders to also genuflect.

 

[RCCDefender]

It takes too long?? Yeah, 'cause we all know what a hurry Jesus is in, right? Sheesh! Yeah, nana, looks like you have at least got a school that teaches the kids to have some respect for Christ. I never!

 

[Rye-Guy]

Being in a hurry was a major problem in the town I used to live. I notice the priest was always checking his watch and one summer’s day, he said it was too hot to give a homily!!!