meltzerboy
New member
Jews do not speculate on this and such speculation is frowned upon in Judaism. I can also note that, as the saying goes, you don’t have to be Jewish to go to heaven (or purgatory first) according to Jewish belief.
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Techno2000
Guest
St. Faustina said that by prayer, “God’s mercy can touch the sinner even at the last moment, in a wondrous and mysterious way. Outwardly,** it seems as if **everything is lost, but it is not so. The soul, illumined by a ray of God’s powerful final grace, can turn to God even in the last moment, with such a power of love that in an instant, it receives from God, forgiveness of all sin and punishment, while outwardly it shows no sign either of repentance or of contrition, because souls [at that stage] no longer react to external things”. (Diary 1698)
An Unpublished Manuscript on Purgatory
Excerpt :
I can tell you about the different degrees of Purgatory because I have passed through them. In the great Purgatory there are several stages. In the lowest and most painful, like a temporary hell, are the sinners who have committed terrible crimes during life and whose death surprised them in that state. It was almost a miracle that they were saved, and often by the prayers of holy parents or other pious persons. Sometimes they did not even have time to confess their sins and the world thought them lost, but God, whose mercy is infinite, gave them at the moment of death the contrition necessary for their salvation on account of one or more good actions which they performed during life. For such souls, Purgatory is terrible. It is a real hell with this difference, that in hell they curse God, whereas we bless Him and thank Him for having saved us.
catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=6253
Dante’s Purgatorio
The Unshriven: Violent Deaths
We are all souls who met a violent death,
and we were sinners to our final hour;
but then the** light of Heaven lit our minds**,
and penitent and pardoning, we left
that life at peace with God, Who left our hearts
with longing for the holy sight of Him.”
An Unpublished Manuscript on Purgatory
Excerpt :
I can tell you about the different degrees of Purgatory because I have passed through them. In the great Purgatory there are several stages. In the lowest and most painful, like a temporary hell, are the sinners who have committed terrible crimes during life and whose death surprised them in that state. It was almost a miracle that they were saved, and often by the prayers of holy parents or other pious persons. Sometimes they did not even have time to confess their sins and the world thought them lost, but God, whose mercy is infinite, gave them at the moment of death the contrition necessary for their salvation on account of one or more good actions which they performed during life. For such souls, Purgatory is terrible. It is a real hell with this difference, that in hell they curse God, whereas we bless Him and thank Him for having saved us.
catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=6253
Dante’s Purgatorio
The Unshriven: Violent Deaths
We are all souls who met a violent death,
and we were sinners to our final hour;
but then the** light of Heaven lit our minds**,
and penitent and pardoning, we left
that life at peace with God, Who left our hearts
with longing for the holy sight of Him.”
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Lenten_ashes
Guest
Even 1/3 of all people of all time would meet that criteria in a manner of speaking.
But then there is still the problem of the 2/3 who were as Paul says, “disqualified”.
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Techno2000
Guest
Paul said 2/3 are disqualified ?
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Sacred_Heart_1
Guest
One should not place men in the place of paradise or the antipode of paradise, not even to place men in purgatory, all within the heart.
I believe Paul refutes speculation when he says something like, Don’t speculate if someone goes to hell (for that is descending Christ into hell. Nor should one speculate about who is going to Heaven (for that is to raise Christ to Heaven). (something like that from my memory).
Rather we should proclaim the Lord’s death upon the earth so that he comes again.
Basically, we should not place men, within our hearts, in one place or another. We should just trust Jesus and everything will be alright.
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Techno2000
Guest
“But Jesus, who in this vision informed me of all that is needed by me, answered with these words and said: ‘It was necessary that there should be sin; but all shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of thing shall be well.’
-Jesus to Julian of Norwich
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spedteacherita
Guest
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rweidn
Guest
Purgatory would make the most sense. The soul journeys on and God’s grace is working to try to bring everyone back home.
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goout
Guest
Speculation is the tool of the devil.
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rcwitness
Guest
Sorry if this Scripture passage was addressed, but…
And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a marriage feast for his son, and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the marriage feast; but they would not come. Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, Behold, I have made ready my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves are killed, and everything is ready; come to the marriage feast.’ But they made light of it and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those invited were not worthy. Go therefore to the thoroughfares, and invite to the marriage feast as many as you find.’ And those servants went out into the streets and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good; so the wedding hall was filled with guests.
“But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment; and he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and cast him into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.’For many are called, but few are chosen.”
It’s difficult to make such a speculation, though it seems very possible (and even likely) that fewer souls enter heaven. What should not happen, is argument over the issue. We just don’t know.
And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a marriage feast for his son, and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the marriage feast; but they would not come. Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, Behold, I have made ready my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves are killed, and everything is ready; come to the marriage feast.’ But they made light of it and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those invited were not worthy. Go therefore to the thoroughfares, and invite to the marriage feast as many as you find.’ And those servants went out into the streets and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good; so the wedding hall was filled with guests.
“But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment; and he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and cast him into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.’For many are called, but few are chosen.”
It’s difficult to make such a speculation, though it seems very possible (and even likely) that fewer souls enter heaven. What should not happen, is argument over the issue. We just don’t know.
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Peter_J
Guest
Worse, IMO.
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rcwitness
Guest
At least these questions compel some to read Scripture.
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Peter_J
Guest
If I killed someone, but something about the murder made me decide to read a scripture passage, would you say “At least the murder compelled him to read scripture”?
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rcwitness
Guest
Of course.
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rcwitness
Guest
Though I wouldn’t phrase it that the “murder” compelled one him to read Scripture. It would be the “conviction” of the Spirit to read and seek God, in Scripture. Scripture calls us to repent and turn to Jesus.
The Scripture that may help someone reluctant to fast when the Church calls us to, is this:
1 Cor. 10
So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.*Give no offense to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God,**just as I try to please all men in everything I do, not seeking my own advantage, but that of many, that they may be saved.
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