To heaven through Mary?

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living_water said:
I guess I am missing your point. My point was that it is heresy to say that the ONLY entrance to Jesus is Mary, and that a person cannot come to Jesus unless they first come through Mary. Anyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.

This truth is clearly shown by the scripture I quoted. The Cannanite woman was not rejected by Jesus because she did not approach him through the Jewish tradition.

This really is not something that is up for debate. If anyone were to actually believe that they must approach God the Father or God the Son or God the Holy Spirit through Mary, they have no scriptural support, and no support in dogma. All anyone would have to do is just pick up their Bible and read a few passages of either the gospels or epistles and find this is clearly true.

And as for post #41, the idea that if Mary isn’t available then another saint will do is equally troubling. There is not a shred of evidence in either the scriptures or official Church teaching to support the notiont that you cannot boldly approach the throne of grace through the Mediator between God and Man, who is Christ Jesus. He is the way, the truth and life. He is accessible.

Again, I think there is a problem here with knowing and understanding the Bible. If the Catholic Church really taught you must come to Jesus through Mary, I would never have converted. I know my Bible.
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The reality is that whether someone professing belief in Christ our Lord honors our heavenly Mother Mary or not, it is because of her “yes” – her free assent to serve in the role God planned for her – that our salvation (eternal life with Christ and His body) is possible. It is because of her “yes” – “through her” that He was born of the virgin Mary and became man. Whether we acknowledge that we attain Heaven through Mary or not doesn’t take away the reality that we do. Her role IS integral for our salvation – in God’s plan for all of us. The gates of Heaven were not opened up to those souls who were asleep, until Christ died, descended into Hell, and then on the third day, rose from the dead. This act of redemption is when Jesus opened the gates of Heaven for the righteous.

No imperfect soul shall enter Heaven. Thank you God for the gift of purgatory. Those who refuse to give their love and honor to all that is good – including Mary and all the saints – but who otherwise have not separated themselves from God through unforgiven mortal sin, may atone for this deficit in purgatory.

By the way, you stated that “anyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.” Well, it takes more than that. Faith isn’t enough – the Scriptures (Old and New Testaments) tell us repeatedly that obedient faith is required – and that we may lose our salvation. Salvation is an ongoing process, not a one-time event.
 
Thanks Eilish.

This is becoming a very interesting topic since there are two sides to it.
On one side there is the quite human side and tangled in with our thoughts in the church.
Also there is the biblical side and this also is tangled in with the understanding individuals percieve, and could be led by the Holy Spirit at times. However it is the Holy Spirit who guides all when asked if He will.

So we come back to " Is there a way to heaven through Mary, since Mary is sinless, the mother of Jesus (God) therefore had to have the Holy Spirit since Jesus the Father and the Holy Spirit are one, would she have all three?" Can there be a way to heaven through Mary? OR… is this an ambiguous question?

God bless
 
living_water said:
I guess I am missing your point. My point was that it is heresy to say that the ONLY entrance to Jesus is Mary, and that a person cannot come to Jesus unless they first come through Mary. Anyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.
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The word ONLY there is dangerous! And I am sure even the Church does not teach it that way. I don’t know where you got that idea. I guess you simply invented it and then attack it as if it is a teaching of the Church.
 
agangbern said:
The word ONLY there is dangerous! And I am sure even the Church does not teach it that way. I don’t know where you got that idea. I guess you simply invented it and then attack it as if it is a teaching of the Church.
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I have not invented or attacked anything, and I did not perceive this exchange as negative until you accused me of attacking the Church. You should be very careful with your accusations. I am simply trying to interpret the posts in this thread that seem to confuse the roles of the saints, which includes the Blessed Mother, with that of the Savior. The posts seem to promote the idea that whoever you turn to in prayer, whether it is specifically Jesus or specifically a saint, there is no difference in how you address the saint or Jesus, since the saints make up the body of Christ. Other posts go so far as to promote the idea that if you do not honor Mary, then Jesus will deny you entrance into heaven. I strongly disagree, because Mary is not our savior. Certainly, a person who did not honor the Blessed Mother because of they had been taught this way would simply be introduced to her in heaven, as someone else eloquently stated.

The argument that because the Blessed Mother is the New Eve, and the mother of life, she is not distinguishable from the Savior is not a good argument IMO. Certainly, she consented to the Incarnation, and is highly honored and her petitions are sought. However, Jesus also was incarnated because of the faithfulness of David, for example, and was born of flesh through His line. Should we then make the argument that it doesn’t matter whether we pray to David or Jesus, since Jesus is the Son of David? There are many other logical problems that follow if we do not recognize the distinction between the saints and Jesus.

IMO, (and all people have opinions, theologians included) this is an error that confuses matters and may inadvertently lead to the worship of Mary or a saint. Idolatry is a grave sin, and we should not be lax about guarding against it.

He who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved. Period. That says nothing about acting in faith- of course that is another part of the equation that nobody should deny, and acting in faith throughout our lives is required.

However, believing and confessing IS the first action, and it is what we are called to do. We are called to call upon the name of the Lord.

Passage Romans 10:10-14:
10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Nowhere does it say confess faith in our Blessed Mother or brother or sisters on earth (the saints) to be saved, but to take their examples of righteousness and obedience, and to call upon them for intercession.

So of course we greatly honor and imitate our Mother’s role in our salvation, but there is a distinction. When the Blessed Mother asks us to commit ourselves to her immaculate heart, I don’t believe she means she is saving us, I believe she is telling us to trust her prayers and intercession and to follow her example of obedience to God. She was not made the propitiation for our sins as Jesus was made.

1 John 2

1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
 
agangbern said:
The word ONLY there is dangerous! And I am sure even the Church does not teach it that way. I don’t know where you got that idea. I guess you simply invented it and then attack it as if it is a teaching of the Church.
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I think you should be very careful about accusing others of attacking the Church, because that is clearly not what I am doing , nor did I interpret this exchange as negative or hateful until this was posted.

Idolatry is a grave sin and one we should never be lax about examining our consciences to guard against.

I interpret several of these posts as confusing the roles of the saints with the role of Jesus. There is a difference between having faith in Jesus as our Savior and the propitiation for our sins and following the example of our Blessed Mother and requesting her intercession and graces. We don’t have faith in our Mother, Brothers or Sisters in Christ, alive or dead, to save us, but to intercede with the Savior.

And yes, absoulutely, He who calls upon the name of the Lord and confesses that faith will be saved. Making that statement in no way repudiates the requirement of obedience in actions to perfect faith. If you deny the above, you deny scripture.

Romans 10:10-13:
10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11 As the Scripture says, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.” 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

The Blessed Mother was not made a propitiation for our sins. When she asks us to trust her immaculate heart, she asks us to trust her mothering intercession and cooperation with Jesus in our salvation, but we aren’t asked to have faith in her work on the cross, we are asked to have faith in her Son’s work on the cross.

1 John 2:2: He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
 
living_water said:
I think you should be very careful about accusing others of attacking the Church, because that is clearly not what I am doing , nor did I interpret this exchange as negative or hateful until this was posted.
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And who is saying that this exchange is negative or hateful? Did I ever accuse anyone in this thread of attacking the Church? Thanks for telling me to be careful. But tell that to yourself the more. What I am saying is that you built up an idea, the idea which used the word ONLY, and then attacked it yourself. What you attacked is not the Church but your own idea.
living_water said:
Idolatry is a grave sin and one we should never be lax about examining our consciences to guard against.

I interpret several of these posts as confusing the roles of the saints with the role of Jesus. There is a difference between having faith in Jesus as our Savior and the propitiation for our sins and following the example of our Blessed Mother and requesting her intercession and graces. We don’t have faith in our Mother, Brothers or Sisters in Christ, alive or dead, to save us, but to intercede with the Savior.

And yes, absoulutely, He who calls upon the name of the Lord and confesses that faith will be saved. Making that statement in no way repudiates the requirement of obedience in actions to perfect faith. If you deny the above, you deny scripture.
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There is no question about all of those. Yes, idolatry is a grave sin. But I do not see how idolatry entered into this discussion. No one is worshipping Mama Mary as God here! And no one is claiming here that her role is equal to Jesus’ role in saving man. And I don’t see how you arrived at the conclusion that posts here are confusing the roles of the saints with the role of Jesus.
 
living_water said:
Again, I think there is a problem here with knowing and understanding the Bible. If the Catholic Church really taught you must come to Jesus through Mary, I would never have converted. I know my Bible.
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I don don’t think the Church teaches it that way. Remove the word 'MUST" and everything would be okay. Mama Mary is a sure way to Jesus. But it does not follow that ONLY through her MUST man come to Jesus.
 
agangbern said:
To heaven through Mary? In a sense yes! But accurately, it is: TO JESUS THROUGH MARY.

The Way to heaven is Jesus. Mary is a sure path to Jesus, because Jesus cannot refuse what or who His Mother recommends to him. This fact is confirmed during the marriage in Cana where Jesus, though his time has not yet come, but granted what His Mother desired and turned the jars of water into jars of wine. How great is Jesus’ love for Mary! The proud would attempt to go directly to Jesus in his own way, ignoring those who have gone ahead of him and are already with Jesus, and at times even dishonoring them. Is such act honorable? If you were Jesus, would you welcome such kind of persons?
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Apparently we disagree on this theological point, and I don’t think there is anything more for me to add. I agree with your words in blue. I am hesitant about what you said in orange. I certainly think that if someone understands that the purpose of Mary is to get to know Jesus, then it would be true that Jesus cannot refuse who Mary recommends. But I take issue with what is said in red, and I have addressed that in scripture. There is nothing more for me to add to what I have said about this.

Peace.
 
living_water said:
riginally Posted by agangbern View Post
The proud would attempt to go directly to Jesus in his own way, ignoring those who have gone ahead of him and are already with Jesus, and at times even dishonoring them. Is such act honorable? If you were Jesus, would you welcome such kind of persons?

But I take issue with what is said in red, and I have addressed that in scripture. There is nothing more for me to add to what I have said about this.

Peace.
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That red would never contradict the scriptures…In fact that is in line with the prayer of Jesus: “That they may be perfected in unity…” Perfection is not to be attained apart from one another. The disciples has to attain it in unity. Not each his own. We pray for one another… No, I am not saying we pray TO EACH OTHER as if the other other is God… The disciples should pray FOR ONE ANOTHER. And this includes Mama Mary and all the saints in heaven.
 
I think when we get to Heaven we will be bowled over at what the prayers of Our Lady have achieved…and when we get to Heaven then we will know and no speculation at all needed…Barb:)
 
Jesus gave Mary to John @ the Cross… and to all of us…

She is a loving mother, one who loves us unconditionally, knows our weaknesses…

God is into family or he wouldn’t have arranged Christ’s birth as he did…

So what kind of a family do you have without a mother??

And no, that is not merely a rhetorical question…

Are you a Protestant?
 
BarbaraTherese said:
I think when we get to Heaven we will be bowled over at what the prayers of Our Lady have achieved…and when we get to Heaven then we will know and no speculation at all needed…Barb:)
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Personally I think I will be way more focused on God if/when I get to Heaven - anything re Mary and the saints won’t mean a thing.
 
Eilish_Maura said:
Personally I think I will be way more focused on God if/when I get to Heaven - anything re Mary and the saints won’t mean a thing.
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What do you think the communion of Saints is for? Do you think the battalions of Saints Jesus commands quits fighting for souls when they make it to heaven?
 
Eilish_Maura said:
Personally I think I will be way more focused on God if/when I get to Heaven - anything re Mary and the saints won’t mean a thing.
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Ah well, when we get to Heaven we will know what we know… no more speculation…Blessings - Barb:)
 
Eilish_Maura said:
Haven’t we been told that all eyes are on God in Heaven?
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Absolutely!..But what in the Reality this means we do not know. In worldly understanding The Beatific Vision means we will be looking at The Lord and being with Him, United to Him, etc. etc. - but what what we call The Beatific Vision actually is as an experience in Truth we do not know. We can only speculate.

I personally believe in the Communion of Saints and that at the end of time I will be reunited humanly with those in Heaven - how this “fits in” with the Beatific Vision I do not know…I also personally believe there will be people there that will completely surprise us (God’s Mercy)…also that we will be absolutely astounded at what the Prayers of Our Lady has achieved. I believe in the resurrection of the body as I believe in the Communion of Saints. All of these matters are born of God’s Goodness which will be The Beatific Vision, and how they fit in with the Beatific Vision is a mind boggling matter to me as us the Reality of The Beaitific Vision itself as an experience or as “all eyes on God”. I believe as a speculation that this means we will also see all the Good that God has wrought…including through Our Lady and her prayers and our saints and theirs etc. etc.

There are all sorts, I should imagine, beliefs and understandings about what the experience of Heaven will actually be…and one day, God’s Mercy prevailing, we will actually know by experience. At this point on earth, we can merely speculate drawing on faulted human knowledge and reasonings and therefore conditional knowledge and reasonings.

Blessings - Barb:thumbsup:
 
I see many writings of the flesh here since in Heaven there is NO humanness since in Heaven there is GOD and all else will be giving Him glory in all sences of live in the spirit.

Now there is a place for all things as they are here in God’s people in the spirit, and without tears and pain for Jesus tells us so.

Jesus also tells us that God made mankind to His likeness, and He tells us also that Heaven is with in us. We are also told by Jesus that WE are the temple of the HOLY SPIRIT. So It seems that all things will be in the spirit with no pain however since God made family friends then why would He change that when we are of the spirit in life forever?

Godbless
 
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