To Hold or not to hold, that is the question

[Fidelis]

I am astounded that people are going to so much trouble to defend any un-mandated action that, effectively, forces other people, willing or not, to participate (see my post from July 14th). If someone wants to *individually * whirl like a dervish or bounce on one foot, or pick their I don’t know what and it makes them feel holier to do so during Mass, then go for it. But for goodness sakes, just because it makes you feel good, don’t insist on promoting an un-mandated practice that makes others feel like boors if they don’t feel the same way about it and decline to play along.

 

[Veronica_Anne]

Fidelis:

I am astounded that people are going to so much trouble to defend any un-mandated action that, effectively, forces other people, willing or not, to participate (see my post from July 14th). If someone wants to *individually * whirl like a dervish or bounce on one foot, or pick their I don’t know what and it makes them feel holier to do so during Mass, then go for it. But for goodness sakes, just because it makes you feel good, don’t insist on promoting an un-mandated practice that makes others feel like boors if they don’t feel the same way about it and decline to play along.

Exactly my point. Thanks for putting it across so well!

:clapping: :tiphat: :bowdown2: :twocents:

 

[deogratias]

If someone wants to *individually *whirl like a dervish or bounce on one foot, or pick their I don’t know what and it makes them feel holier to do so during Mass, then go for it. But for goodness sakes, just because it makes you feel good, don’t insist on promoting an un-mandated practice that makes others feel like boors if they don’t feel the same way about it and decline to play along.

Exactamundo -

 

[guse]

I am not trying to defend doing something that is prohibited by the Church. However, what if, IF, the Church made hand holding optional. What would the reaction be? Yes, we shouldn’t be holding hands because that in not what is permitted. However, there seems to be an extreme dislike for the just the thought of holding hands during the Our Father. Maybe I’m wrong, but in my opinion while we may not be permitted to hold hands, Catholics are allowed to want to or hope that someday the Church will allow it. I do not think that makes someone unfaithful to Church teaching.

 

[deogratias]

Depends upon what you mean by optional. Would it be optional that Bishops could say we should all do it or none do it. Would it be optional that parishes could choose to do it or not. Would it be optional for me to join in or decline (pretty much was goes on now anyway)?

 

[deogratias]

This poll has been interesting in that it shows that a large majority do not think we should hold hands yet at most parishes where hand holding goes on at all, the majority of people do it - wonder why that is - peer pressure?

 

[Charliemac]

We don’t get a lot of hand holding during the Lord’s prayer at our parish. The people I see are holding hands are usually families. I travel a good bit, and attend daily Mass whenever I can. The hand holding thing seems pretty popular in the south, although I have seen it other places.
It seems to me that we should not just stand holding the pew, or with our hands in our pockets, so I just pray the Lords Prayer standing with my hands either clasped in front of my chest, or palms together. It is kind of an old fashioned way to pray, but then I’m kind of an old fashioned prayer.
As for the hands in the orans position, I see it as ill advised. At best it is an unauthorized position and it is immitating the celebrant which is I belive prohibited. We have some who assume this position, and I think that it may have come out of the charismatic movement.

Charlie

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

guse:

Maybe I’m wrong, but in my opinion while we may not be permitted to hold hands, Catholics are allowed to want to or hope that someday the Church will allow it. I do not think that makes someone unfaithful to Church teaching.

These words are just so pertinent, and so powerful:
Redemptionis Sacramentum:
[5.] The observance of the norms published by the authority of the Church requires conformity of thought and of word, of external action and of the application of the heart. A merely external observation of norms would obviously be contrary to the nature of the Sacred Liturgy, in which Christ himself wishes to gather his Church, so that together with himself she will be “one body and one spirit”. For this reason, external action must be illuminated by faith and charity, which unite us with Christ and with one another and engender love for the poor and the abandoned. The liturgical words and rites, moreover, are a faithful expression, matured over the centuries, of the understanding of Christ, and they teach us to think as he himself does; by conforming our minds to these words, we raise our hearts to the Lord.

[7.] Not infrequently, abuses are rooted in a false understanding of liberty. Yet God has not granted us in Christ an illusory liberty by which we may do what we wish, but a liberty by which we may do that which is fitting and right. This is true not only of precepts coming directly from God, but also of laws promulgated by the Church, with appropriate regard for the nature of each norm.For this reason, all should conform to the ordinances set forth by legitimate ecclesiastical authority…

   abuses are often based on ignorance, in that they involve a rejection of those elements whose deeper meaning is not understood and whose antiquity is not recognized. For “the liturgical prayers, orations and songs are pervaded by the inspiration and impulse” of the Sacred Scriptures themselves, “and it is from these that the actions and signs receive their meaning”.  As for the visible signs “which the Sacred Liturgy uses in order to signify the invisible divine realities, they have been chosen by Christ or by the Church”...

So, the Church understands that some abuses are well intentioned, but committed out of ignorance, while others are committed out of disobedience. But She does instruct that once we know what the Church desires, teaches, and lays down, we should accept it, not only in practice, but in our minds and hearts. It does little good to go along physically with the norms while dissenting from them in our hearts.

(Kinda makes me think of Lot’s wife, looking back longingly at Sodom and Gomorrah.)

Pax Christi. <><

 

[guse]

Well, that gives me something to think about. I didn’t realize we couldn’t want to hold hands. Like I said, you’ve given me something to think about. Of course, that should give many of us something to think about; especially the critics of the N.O. Well, I knew when I decided to enter the Church that somethings would be hard. Whenever I question how I will be able to accept something the Church teaches or to live out certain teachings, I think of one thing: The Eucharist. Source and Summit indeed!

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

So true!

I guess that’s why Jesus said, “If you love me, deny your very self, pick up your cross, and follow Me.”

He gave His own example of perfectly conforming His Will to the Will of the Heavenly Father, submitting in obedience even to His earthly parents.

These things are only difficult because we have our own will (and a fallen nature!).
It is a challenge, but also a great privilege and a great liberation when we submit our will and conform to the heart and mind of the Church!

When we unite our sinful hearts with the Sacred Heart of Jesus, encircled with a crown of thorns for love of us, we make great spiritual progress.

Whether it be seemingly “little” things like holding hands, or more difficult things such as embracing Holy Church’s teachings on contraception and sterilization (a stumbling block to so many) we truly benefit and grow closer to God. (However, the rest of the world may see us as fanatical, or what have you. Small price to pay, since we are not being fed to lions any more! )

Let us unite in heart and mind and soul with the Holy Church Christ left to us!

Pax Christi. <><

 

[Michael]

Panis Angelicas:

   [5.] The observance of the norms published by the authority of the Church **requires conformity of thought and of word, of external action and of the application of the heart

[/indent]**

How could anything ever change in the church if no one ever had thoughts different than what is practiced. You have to have a conscious thought to form ideas. We are not robots that go about just doing as we are told. We are free to think and to contemplate the teachings of the church. If we were to just do as we are told and not think and learn then there is no reason to have study groups and discussion forums. I don’t think that Redem Sanc… means for us to just close our minds to anything but what is written. If God wanted that then we would not have the power of reasoning that separates us from the other creatures of the earth. Just my opinion using the brain that God gave me for thinking and reasoning. Thanks

 

[deogratias]

Michael:

How could anything ever change in the church if no one ever had thoughts different than what is practiced.

Michael - I hate to disappoint you but the Catholic Church is not a democracy. You ask how anything can be changed. It is not us, the people, who have that responsibility. Jesus is the head of our Church, he founded it and brought it into being.

He founded it on St. Peter and to him alone gave the power of binding and loosing everything on earth, strengthening his brethren and feeding his flock. (Matthew 16-18-19, Luke 22:31-32 and John 21:15-17)

The Pope who is the successor of St. Peter is also the head of the Church, having the power given above.

According to Vatican II, Lumen Gentium (18) “In order to shepherd the People of God and to increase its numbers, without cease, Christ the Lord set up in his Church a variety of offces which aim at the good of the whole body” - The Magesterium. These led by the guidance of the Holy Spirit make any changes that may be made, develop doctrine, etc. It is not your job or mine or any of the laity. Only the Pope and the Bishops who are in communion with him can authentically interpret the Word (both written and handed down through the Traditions of the Church).

What is our job? We aid the Bishops, the Priests by spreading and sharing our faith in so far as God has given us talent to do so.

 

[deogratias]

You have to have a conscious thought to form ideas. We are not robots that go about just doing as we are told. We are free to think and to contemplate the teachings of the church. If we were to just do as we are told and not think and learn then there is no reason to have study groups and discussion forums. I don’t think that Redem Sanc… means for us to just close our minds to anything but what is written. If God wanted that then we would not have the power of reasoning that separates us from the other creatures of the earth. Just my opinion using the brain that God gave me for thinking and reasoning. Thanks

Yes God gave us free Will - we can choose good or we can choose evil. We can choose right or we can choose wrong. We can choose to go to heaven or we can choose to go to hell.

But we need a well formed conscience in order to be able to “follow our conscience”, otherwise people would just rationalize everhing into what they wanted to do rather than what God wants us to do. Conscience is not merely a formation of thought and reason. Each person has certain things inscribed in his heart by God. A right conscience conforms with the natural law, divine law, and the Church’s teaching on morals and faith.

So why did God give us intelligence and Free Will? To use for the purpose for which we were created, “to know, love and serve God in this life so we can be forever happy with him in the next”

God gave us a brain to learn, to follow his teachings, not to change them.

 

[Michael]

I guess I stated my thoughts wrong. What I meant was that even the people in authority positions must have the ability to think outside the box to have the original thoughts to change or adapt church teachings. The Pope and Bishops have to have an idea different from what is written to come up with the new positions of the church. As my priest has said when we question the changes that came with Vatican II “We must understand that the things in the Bible were written by people of different cultures and the passages must be adapted and interpreted to relate to the present culture and not taken literally” Coming from a baptist background I had be accustomed to taking the words as written and was taught that the meaning are clear as written. After entering the Catholic Church I began to understand that the words had to be interpreted and presented to us by our priest and Bishops as they relate to todays society and culture. I am still learning and I appreciated the senior members of this forum educating me on the ways of the church. I know from what I read in this forum that just because a priest tells you something that does not mean that it is right. I see that there are vast differences concerning the way mass is carried out and the way that the liturgy is presented. I know that it should be consistant but I don’t think that it is now. Maybe something could be done by the USCCB to standardize the way Mass is celebrated in the U.S. and then the ones of us who are new to the Catholic faith would not be confused as to what is the right way to do things. Again I thank the senior members for their imput.

 

[deogratias]

Ah Michael - I did not realize you were new to the Church.

You did mention the “mind” and why we had it - well that is why, we are to become well informed Catholics - and that is why we have the study groups, forums, books, etc.

It takes a long time to become a truly informed Catholic. Begin with the obvious - read the Catechism of the Catholic Church from cover to cover.

You will notice it has many references to documents and to writings of the Church Fathers, etc. Read as many of these as you can.

Get back to me in about 5 years

And welcome to the Catholic church - its teachings are universal, its liturgy varies and the Truth is there but not always correctly stated by priests and lay persons because we are all human and subject to error.

 

[Michael]

deogratias:

It takes a long time to become a truly informed Catholic. Begin with the obvious - read the Catechism of the Catholic Church from cover to cover.

I have a copy of the Catechism and have started reading but it is rather long. I have purchased alot of books in the last year and have learned alot. I have learned most from the Catholic websites. Thanks for you help

 

[guse]

Maybe the bigger question is how to changes in the Mass come about? Obviously somethings change. I understand we are to accept the norms set forth by the authorities in the Church. I bring up again the “norm” of crossing our minds, lips, and heart before the reading of the Gospel. The question of how this developed was asked on the EWTN Q&A forum. The answer was that originally only the priest did it but that the people started imitating the priest and it eventually became the “norm” for both priest and congregation to do it. How does that fit with us accepting in mind, not just action, the norms set forth by the Church?

 

[loyola_rambler]

My head is spinning after reading this thread. For the life of me, I can’t believe I’ve read people describing the act of holding hands in prayer as either “abusive” or “experimental”. Catholics have held hands in prayer in certain countries for centuries (just ask the Irish and the French). It is perfectly acceptable if the bishop, acting as the spiritual shepherd of his diocese, permits it.

One document quoted stated that hands should be “extended”. Extended where? Into the air? That the Orans position. Extended to each other? That’s called holding hands.

The Eucharist is not the only part of the mass that is supposed to promote a sense of community. Quite literally, the entire mass is a celebrated to bring together and promulgate the sense of community. It’s illogical to separate one part of the service from any other and isolate that few minutes as the only point where something is supposed to be communal or private.

As for my kids and I, we hold hands with each other whenever and wherever we pray. I have held hands with my parents my entire life (long before the 70s, thank you) and they held hands in prayer with their parents since the 30s. We are French-Canadian and that is a tradition in our ethnic group within Catholicism that I for one relish and will never give up. Now I’m not asking anyone else to hold my hand, but if they want to and they’re not obviously ill, I’m all for it. If they don’t want to, then hey, I’m not phased in the slightest.

There’s a lot more to worry about in this world than rather a child holds mom’s hand when praying the Lord’s prayer.

 

[Fidelis]

loyola rambler:

There’s a lot more to worry about in this world than rather a child holds mom’s hand when praying the Lord’s prayer.

Nobody has said on this aisle that family members CAN"T or even shouldn’t hold hands during the Our Father. What is at issue is pew vaulting and stretching across aisles and making this un-mandated practice so automatic and standard that that people come to think it IS mandated…

 

[loyola_rambler]

Fidelis:

Nobody has said on this aisle that family members CAN"T or even shouldn’t hold hands during the Our Father. What is at issue is pew vaulting and stretching across aisles and making this un-mandated practice so automatic and standard that that people come to think it IS mandated…

It might not be for YOU…but read the whole thread, there are a good many people here who object to it by ANYONE.

For the record, here’s the only reference to it that I can find in the GIRM:

1. The gestures and posture of the priest, the deacon, and the ministers, as well as those of the people, ought to contribute to making the entire celebration resplendent with beauty and noble simplicity, so that the true and full meaning of the different parts of the celebration is evident and that the participation of all is fostered. Therefore, attention should be paid to what is determined by this General Instruction and the traditional practice of the Roman Rite and to what serves the common spiritual good of the People of God, rather than private inclination or arbitrary choice.

A common posture, to be observed by all participants, is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered for the Sacred Liturgy: it both expresses and fosters the intention and spiritual attitude of the participants.

*The Lord’s Prayer

*81. In the Lord’s Prayer a petition is made for daily food, which for Christians means preeminently the eucharistic bread, and also for purification from sin, so that what is holy may, in fact, be given to those who are holy. The priest says the invitation to the prayer, and all the faithful say it with him; the priest alone adds the embolism, which the people conclude with a doxology. The embolism, enlarging upon the last petition of the Lord’s Prayer itself, begs deliverance from the power of evil for the entire community of the faithful.

The invitation, the Prayer itself, the embolism, and the doxology by which the people conclude these things are sung or said aloud.

So…to hold or not to hold is neither encouraged nor discouraged. Though the document goes into posture in great detail for most of the GIRM, it’s not creating any “norm” at all during the Lord’s Prayer…but rather leaving it to the lead of the priest.

Finally, according to the USCC Committee on the Liturgy:

No position is prescribed in the present Sacramentary for an assembly gesture during the Lord’s Prayer.

usccb.org/liturgy/q%26a/mass/orans.htm

Hence, no one is adding to, nor taking away from the mass by extending their hands in the air, to their children, their friends, or the lady across the aisle. Likewise, they’re not creating any “abuse”, real or sacramental, by assuming any posture…as long as it’s a common posture, to be observed by all participants, [a]s a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered for the Sacred Liturgy: it both expresses and fosters the intention and spiritual attitude of the participants.

---

Methinks people make too much out of the wrong things and overlook what’s really important in the road to salvation.